ASL verses ASLSK - A question

trailrunner

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50%, really? I would have said 5% or 10%... The SK4 rulebook, front to back, is just 36 pages long - that's shorter than ASL Chapter A.
50% is not a quantitative measure based on the number of words or pages. It's just a WAG. Hopefully you understood the idea I was trying to convey. SK tastes great and is less filling.
 

Actionjick

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One main improvement that ASL and ASLSK both have are the Defensive First Fire mechanics.
If I were asked the most significant difference between SL and ASL this would be my answer. While SL did have an optional rule for defensive fire we never used it or even tried it as we were focused more on prepping for tournaments where that option was not employed. I remember Nixon being suprised we hadn't at least checked it out.
 

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It seems the ASLSK was mostly targeting those who had either never played SL or had and were reluctant to fully commit to ASL and start the whole acquisition process over again. While the SK was supposed to be a bridge to ASL apparently it was a bridge too far for many players. It only makes sense for MMP to cater to what those players want. As stated in previous posts it benefits the ASL community, it provides additional revenue for MMP and keeps people interested in board games. Sounds like a good thing to me, a rising tide lifts all boats.
 

Actionjick

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SL wasn’t meant to be its own ”game system”.
I have to disagree with you on this point. Checking out the back of my COI box it states:
" Cross of Iron is more than just a game. When combined with Squad Leader, it provides a system which can be used to portray any Eastern Front action ".

Further down on the box it states COI is " expanding on the original Squad Leader game system ".

On the front it says COI is the first in a series of gamettes based on SL so there was long term planning that went into the system.

Obviously AH considered it a system.

I'm not sure how this squares with Paul's analogy to it being a breeding experiment, have to ponder that.

Interestingly on the back of the box it tells you to throw away your old artillery and armor counters to make way for their expanded revised counterparts. The system was apparently not as well planned as it could have been.

Checking out the box brings me warm, fuzzy feelings of nostalgia. Good times. The intro about the tank commander is ok but doesn't have the impact, at least on me, that the SL intro did. I still remember standing in the hobby shop reading the back of the SL box and that was before I was introduced to it by Dr. Marc. Didn't have $10.00 on me or probably would have bought it.
 
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Eagle4ty

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I have to disagree with you on this point. Checking out the back of my COI box it states:
" Cross of Iron is more than just a game. When combined with Squad Leader, it provides a system which can be used to portray any Eastern Front action ".

Further down on the box it states COI is " expanding on the original Squad Leader game system ".

On the front it says COI is the first in a series of gamettes based on SL so there was long term planning that went into the system.

Obviously AH considered it a system.

I'm not sure how this squares with Paul's analogy to it being a breeding experiment, have to ponder that.

Interestingly on the back of the box it tells you to throw away your old artillery and armor counters to make way for their expanded revised counterparts. The system was apparently not as well planned as it could have been.

Checking out the box brings me warm, fuzzy feelings of nostalgia. Good times. The intro about the tank commander is ok but doesn't have the impact, at least on me, that the SL intro did. I still remembering standing in the hobby shop reading the back of the box and that was before I was introduced to it by Dr. Marc. Didn't have $10.00 on me or probably would have bought it.
I too believe it was supposed to be its own game and subsequently its own game system. As with most games of the period there was little indication other than a cursory thought that the squad based cardboard game system would catch on other than with the usual small crowd of gamers interested in that level of play. Sure there had been micro armor types of gaming and PB/PL had addressed something of the tactical wargaming market using cardboard pieces, but the general drift in gaming during that period had been fantasy role playing or for board wargamers the large operational level games. Even some of this had permeated the initial SL release as we see quite a few scenarios having a large number of units (pieces) in the scenarios as well as extended game lengths (i.e. the number of turns) not to mention the initial (albeit optional) inclusion of "personal leaders" right from the start. With the unexpected (I believe) success of the original SL to a large number of gamers, other gametes were produced but rules and in the case of vehicles had to be modified and expanded to meet the demands of an ever increasing number of players the system appealed to and at the same time offering a "new" experience to players of the initial module. I do not believe the SL system was in any way designed to be a breeder system other than it became so as an after-effect once the decision was made to clean up and organize the rules into an "Advanced" Squad Leader concept once the original system had become quite cumbersome (AFV combat for example needed to be cleaned up).
 

Old Noob

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Squad Leader was introduced using the "Programmed Instruction" method of rules. You would read the rules as required to play
the scenario, then you get "STOP. READ NO FARTHER". and then you would play the scenario implementing the rules introduced
by your reading.

The main drawback to Squad Leader was that, with each gamette (COI, COD & GI) you got a new rulebook.
AND trying to reconcile all the rulebooks was getting to be a major headache for the players and Avalon Hill
in regards to nut-mail {grognards will remember this term}. So, in 1985 Avalon Hill decided to start over.

Thus was born ADVANCED SQUAD LEADER, and the rest is history.

ASLSK is a lighter version of ASL, and should be treated as such.
 

rykirk

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All this talk about the merits of the rules systems and no one seems to have hit on what must be the #1 selling point for ASLSK which is that the modules are self-contained. Dependency issues in ASL are a nightmare for new players who haven't had a chance to gradually build up a collection over 30 years. Sure you can play Beyond Valor but if you are interested in other theatres and nationalities you have to get a TON of stuff that costs a fortune and much of which is not easily available. The whole 'core module' structure of ASL where you need boards and counters from 3 or 4 (or often more) other $100+ products to actually play the scenarios is very broken and has replicated the old problems that Squad Leader had with rules only with physical components this time around. It is very daunting to new players.

ASLSK sacrifices some of the depth and breadth on a system wide level, but it's nice you can at least play most of the different nationalities and now multiple theatres for a low investment and that whatever game you buy you'll actually be able to play the scenarios that come in the box.
 

rykirk

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I would also contend that ASLSK players who don't want to go to ASL would not be playing ASL if there was no SK line. They would be playing competing games like Lock n Load or Old School Tactical or any of the other ones that come in self contained off the shelf games. So at least this way they're playing some form of ASL and supporting MMP.
 

pixelgeek

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They would be playing competing games like Lock n Load or Old School Tactical or any of the other ones that come in self contained off the shelf games.
Anything to stop people playing Lock n Load!
 

pixelgeek

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OK, I'll bite. What's so wrong about Lock n Load?
Probably not a lot. Aside from some messy rules. My objection to is was the leader counters which always had art on them depicting the person. And often friends of the developer or testers were portrayed with smiling faces. Always put me off the game to have to direct fire at some happy, smiling American NCO.
 
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