ASL verses ASLSK - A question

trailrunner

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Even with 'only' SK1-4 published, you now already need several 'rulebooks' to play SK if you want to play 'full SK' (there is some irony to that expression...). Concealement is only covered in the SK4 rulebook. But in the SK4 rulebook, you don't have notes for non-US, non-Japanese ordnance to name an example.
This isn’t true. The SK rules are backwards compatible. The SK4 rulebook works perfectly fine with SK1. Furthermore, MMP published an electronic version of the SK4 rules, so no matter what scenario I’m playing, I just have those rules on my iPad.

As far as the vehicle notes go, that seems to be an issue with ASL in general. My pocket rulebook is great, but I also have to carry around the chapter Hs from all the modules. I really wish MMP would sell a pocket-sized version supplement with all the vehicle notes for, say $30.
 

pixelgeek

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I think that SK is an opportunity. You can play it with friends that want a WWII game but not the full experience. It has the potential to bring gamers into the full experience. And it provides another revenue stream for MMP and the potential to expand their market.
 

von Marwitz

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This isn’t true. The SK rules are backwards compatible. The SK4 rulebook works perfectly fine with SK1.
Furthermore, MMP published an electronic version of the SK4 rules, so no matter what scenario I’m playing, I just have those rules on my iPad.
It is true.

The SK rules, or rather the scenarios, are not upwards compatible without limitations:

You want to play SK2 with Concealment and a German Gun?
You need the SK2 rulebook and the SK4 rulebook - no matter whether in electronic form or otherwise.
You will note, that SK2 scenarios might not be balanced any more if using Concealment.

As far as the vehicle notes go, that seems to be an issue with ASL in general. My pocket rulebook is great, but I also have to carry around the chapter Hs from all the modules. I really wish MMP would sell a pocket-sized version supplement with all the vehicle notes for, say $30.
That is true.

But it is beside the point.

In ASL there is no discussion about there being a dozen core modules. ASL makes no claim of being simple and does definitely not cater to the needs of those that want it simple. The opposite is the case. ASLers want the chrome and the rules in depth.

SK players do not want that depth - otherwise they'd be playing ASL.


Yet another point:

It has been argued that ASL is way too expensive to begin with and that SK offers a cheaper alternative.

Have a look at what might be called the 'Core Modules' of SK, i.e. SK1-4 (I cannot overlook the irony in using the expression 'Core Modules' for SK, but MMP uses it itself in the first sentence of its introduction: "Welcome to the 4th Core Module in the Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kit (ASLSK).").

SK1 = 25 US$
SK2 = 30 US$
SK3 = 36 US$
SK4 = 65 US$
Total = 150 US$

ASL Pocket RB = 40 US$
Beyond Valor 3rd ed. = 120 US$
Total = 160 US$

A difference of 10 US$.

I have to state that I am not here to bash SK. I am all for it, and it has been pointed out in this thread that it had positive effects for ASL, commercially for MMP, and serves people that find ASL too complicated. This is all fine.

My point is that the more you expand SK, the less its advantages become and the more its disadvantages begin to bear.


von Marwitz
 
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von Marwitz

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I think that SK is an opportunity. You can play it with friends that want a WWII game but not the full experience. It has the potential to bring gamers into the full experience. And it provides another revenue stream for MMP and the potential to expand their market.
Absolutely correct. This point has not been contested.

All I am saying is that IMHO it makes much more sense for a player to switch to ASL after SK3 rather than sticking with an ever expanding SK rules base for the reasons presented in my previous posts.

von Marwitz
 

trailrunner

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It is true.

The SK rules, or rather the scenarios, are not upwards compatible without limitations:

You want to play SK2 with Concealment and a German Gun?
You need the SK2 rulebook and the SK4 rulebook - no matter whether in electronic form or otherwise.
You will note, that SK2 scenarios might not be balanced any more if using Concealment.
You can't use concealment in any SK2 scenario. Concealment in SK is limited to PTO. No PTO in SK 1-3.

As I said, the rules are forward compatible. I'm right now playing an infantry-only scenario with the SK4 rules. I do it all the time.
 

pixelgeek

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Have a look at what might be called the 'Core Modules' of SK, i.e. SK1-4 (I cannot overlook the irony in using the expression 'Core Modules' for SK...).

SK1 = 25 US$
SK2 = 30 US$
SK3 = 36 US$
SK4 = 65 US$
Total = 150 US$

ASL Pocket RB = 40 US$
Beyond Valor 3rd ed. = 120 US$
Total = 160 US$

A difference of 10 US$.
I don't think that is a valid comparison. Buying SK1-4 gives you scenarios using a wider variety of troops and the PTO. You could also just buy individual products and play. Getting SK3 for $36 US is cheaper than getting into ASL (fewer scenarios and boards mind you).

All I am saying is that IMHO it makes much more sense for a player to switch to ASL after SK3 rather than sticking with an ever expanding SK rules base for the reasons presented in my previous posts.
Well it presumes an expanding rules base. SK4 expands the rules because of PTO. You could build an SK Early War module and not require any more rules. It also presumes that someone wants to expand into ASL. I think if that was the case MMP would have released the SK products in a different way. One has to assume that they are responding to market forces and giving consumers what they want.
 

Actionjick

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But only if PTO is in effect. And shooting a quick glance at it, the Concealment rules of SK are much shorter than those in ASL. So still a big difference.

IMHO Concealment and Bypass alone make ASL and SK fundamentally different in the way they play.
Despite the SK rules not contradicting the ASL rules (maybe with very few EXCs).

And there is another point:

Even with 'only' SK1-4 published, you now already need several 'rulebooks' to play SK if you want to play 'full SK' (there is some irony to that expression...). Concealement is only covered in the SK4 rulebook. But in the SK4 rulebook, you don't have notes for non-US, non-Japanese ordnance to name an example.

What if a scenario pack is published?

Are the designers required to adhere to SK1 only, SK2 only, SK3 only, SK4 only, Expansion Pack #1 only rules?
Or will there be a separate rulebook for any SK publication?

Basically, if the 'system' of SK is expanded further, it will replicate the problems of old SL. Maybe without as many contradictions. But it will become increasingly unwieldy, which in part will defeat its purpose. Eventually, there will be a call for a 'combined' ASLSKRB incorporating all SK rules. But at that time at the latest, it will become obivous that SK is no longer the 'simple' approach it was intended and started out to be. Instead we would look easily at 50+ pages, which is nothing to digest in an evening and begin to play like the 12 pages of SK1.

In other words, SK could evolve into something neither fish nor meat. Not the complicated ASL but not the simple SK either. Possibly with numerous separate rulebooks. Numerous SK scenarios would become unbalanced if played with 'full' SK rules. SK players would have to switch rules-thinking depending on playing SK1, SK2, SK3, etc. - and that can be a PITA. Highly likely with an increasing number of SK products which will be out of print and not be reprinted in comparably short order like SK1-3. This, however, would sort of combine the worst of both worlds.

That said, of course, each SK player has always the option to 'stop' at any evolutionary step of SK and then switch to ASL - or not.

von Marwitz
When we started playtesting ASL one of the reasons given for it's development was to get everyone playing the same game. That rationale seems to have gone by the wayside. As long as gamers are playing whatever form of SL/ASL/ASLSK it doesn't really matter, as long as they enjoy it.

I was quite happy with SL but since Mac was at AH working on ASL and we were part of his playtest group I gladly made the switch.
 

von Marwitz

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You can't use concealment in any SK2 scenario. Concealment in SK is limited to PTO. No PTO in SK 1-3.

As I said, the rules are forward compatible. I'm right now playing an infantry-only scenario with the SK4 rules. I do it all the time.
Mate, you won't have your cake and eat it. ;)

Either as you say, you cannot use Concealment in any SK2 scenario.
In that case, you do need to play by a different set of rules in SK2 compared to SK4, because SK2 lacks Concealment. Right?

Or you play your non-SK4 scenarios implementing Concealment anyway. Then you will find the balance of the scenario affected.

von Marwitz
 

peterd1973

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Mate, you won't have your cake and eat it. ;)

Either as you say, you cannot use Concealment in any SK2 scenario.
In that case, you do need to play by a different set of rules in SK2 compared to SK4, because SK2 lacks Concealment. Right?

Or you play your non-SK4 scenarios implementing Concealment anyway. Then you will find the balance of the scenario affected.

von Marwitz
You wouldn't have the concealment counters except for American and Japanese, until the expansion 2 comes out. (If you only have SK)
 

trailrunner

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Either as you say, you cannot use Concealment in any SK2 scenario.
In that case, you do need to play by a different set of rules in SK2 compared to SK4, because SK2 lacks Concealment. Right?
Wrong. In SK, concealment is only in effect in PTO. There are no PTO scenarios in SK 2. I posted that earlier but you ignored it.
 
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Brad M-V

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ASL still creates an enjoyable experience even with most of it's tactical chrome stripped away. The SK rules provide less stress when learning/remembering them because they strip away the majority of this chrome layered overtop of the core rules. These additional ASL rules in themselves are easy to learn, but when combined with the core rules they become difficult to remember, and it's the continual referencing of the rules that ultimately makes learning full ASL feel tiresome or a chore. Not only that though, but the speed of the game grinds to a snails pace robbing the excitement which comes from receiving quicker results from in game choices.
 

von Marwitz

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You wouldn't have the concealment counters except for American and Japanese, until the expansion 2 comes out. (If you only have SK)
Good point.

Which also means that if you want to use a general rules concept as Concealment with the correct color theme, you would need yet another SK product.

von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

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Wrong. In SK, concealment is only in effect in PTO. There are no PTO scenarios in SK 2. I posted that earlier but you ignored it.
I know that there are no PTO scenarios in anything but SK4 in the SK line - yet.

But coming from ASL and not SK, I have learned to view Concealment as a general rules concept and not as one bound to a specific theater of war. One can hide in woods or buildings as well and not only in jungle or bamboo. SK4 artificially narrows the general rules concept of Concealment down to PTO, mainly because - as has been pointed out - no counters are available yet for other nationalities. I bet you, that eventually, some SK product will become available for the Germans. And all of a sudden - lo and behold - Concealment will not be limited any more to PTO.

So what you say is my 'Either' case of post #48:
You cannot use Concealment in any SK2 scenario. You play by SK2 rules, not by SK4 rules, the latter of which include Concealment. The SK4 rules limiting the concept of Concealment to PTO is merely a technical decision against the background that there are no appropriate counters available for other nationalities and using it for other already published SK products would unbalance their scenarios. Limiting Concealment to PTO is not borne out of the conviction that it would not work per se in other theaters or for other nationalities.

I will no longer pursue the argument as I believe I have made my point sufficiently clear.

von Marwitz
 

Actionjick

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ASL still creates an enjoyable experience even with most of it's tactical chrome stripped away. The SK rules provide less stress when learning/remembering them because they strip away the majority of this chrome layered overtop of the core rules. These additional ASL rules in themselves are easy to learn, but when combined with the core rules they become difficult to remember, and it's the continual referencing of the rules that ultimately makes learning full ASL feel tiresome or a chore. Not only that though, but the speed of the game grinds to a snails pace robbing the excitement which comes from receiving quicker results from in game choices.
For all it's " flaws " SL got it right ( at least initially ) by introducing new rules/concepts in a logical way. If you played the scenarios sequentially new rules were introduced as needed. You mastered the basic rules by multiple and repeated playing of the same scenario ( a style near and dear to our hearts ) then moved on and learned the next rule and repeated the process. Something familiar to anyone who has served in the military.

Totally agree with your statement that a chromeless ASL scenario is an enjoyable experience.

Speaking of chrome I have a VERY hazy recollection of landing craft ramp rules but can't recall if it was an actual rule or Rout Report satire. Either way a fine example of chrome.
 

Brad M-V

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For all it's " flaws " SL got it right ( at least initially ) by introducing new rules/concepts in a logical way. If you played the scenarios sequentially new rules were introduced as needed. You mastered the basic rules by multiple and repeated playing of the same scenario ( a style near and dear to our hearts ) then moved on and learned the next rule and repeated the process. Something familiar to anyone who has served in the military.

Totally agree with your statement that a chromeless ASL scenario is an enjoyable experience.

Speaking of chrome I have a VERY hazy recollection of landing craft ramp rules but can't recall if it was an actual rule or Rout Report satire. Either way a fine example of chrome.
Exactly, when I look back at playing SL in my teen years and remember the type of guys my friends and I were, SL was impressive in that it had us all playing and having fun within a few short days. Like you stated, SL got it right for sure. I think MMP has also done a masterful job in capturing that same excitement with the SKs, plus I find with very few additional full rules added they speed solo play along nicely, too.
 

MAS01

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Most of us consider full ASL a "lifestyle" game, and play it mostly to the exclusion of anything else. I'm wondering if those who mainly play SK are those with interests in other systems/time frames/scales.
 

von Marwitz

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Most of us consider full ASL a "lifestyle" game, and play it mostly to the exclusion of anything else. I'm wondering if those who mainly play SK are those with interests in other systems/time frames/scales.
I think there was a poll exactly on that "lifestyle" question a couple of years ago. I seem to recall that the outcome has been that most ASLers do not play ASL exclusively but are also engaged it a variety of other games.

von Marwitz
 

fenyan

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I think playing ASL exclusively or not may be more a function of gaming time/opponents rather than needing to commit wholeheartedly to the system.
 

Robin Reeve

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ASL is my lifetime game.
But not the only game I play.
I don't want to spend all my boardgaming time on a computer.
I also know many people who love boardgaming but who are not interested in wargames nor in too complex games.
And I also like many other themes : heroic fantasy, scifi, HPL Mythos... I am an ameritrasher more than an eurogamer (with some exceptions).
Even though ASL would be the game I would keep if I only had the choice of one, I would be frustrated to miss other gaming experiences.
 

Philippe D.

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The SK system now has four core modules, an expansion pack and one more in the works, a campaign game, and new scenarios being published. SK provides a rich experience with only 50 percent of the rules of ASL. For many SK players, there is no compelling reason to move up the full game.
50%, really? I would have said 5% or 10%... The SK4 rulebook, front to back, is just 36 pages long - that's shorter than ASL Chapter A.

But I'd say there is a huge incentive to move to the full game - the incredible variety of available scenarios. How many SK scenarios have been published? How many full ASL? Of course almost nobody will play them all, but we all have our preferences; and with full ASL, you are more likely to find a number of scenarios that match your personal preferences.
 
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