ASL Speed Run: Hill 621

[daveramsey]

Here's a community challenge (inspired by my post in the chess clocks thread):

How fast can you play a full game of Hill 621? (With no early resignations!) I've played this scenario a couple of times, but it's always taken far too long. Can we get it down to 4 hours or less? Is it a satisfactory experience?

Interested in results (I'll persuade Martin that we can attempt this). So, here are some "rules":

Time doesn't include counter pulling but does include setups and rules checks. Doesn't include breaks. Bonus points if you can allocate your complete time between the two players (ie. Germans took 4 hours, Russians took 4hrs 25 mins, etc)

 

[Eagle4ty]

Doubtful as Vehicles alone would account for additional time commitments most often. Could it be done? Probably, but both players would have to have a solid grasp of rules, charts, and little verbal interaction between the players in addition to VERY FAST play.

 

[PresterJohn]

Using timers would just slow you down. Do what I suggested and just set up a phone on a stand, record the game with enough detail to see who's doing what, and you can review the video later and work out the times.

 

[Jazz]

Using timers would just slow you down. Do what I suggested and just set up a phone on a stand, record the game with enough detail to see who's doing what, and you can review the video later and work out the times.

WTF mentioned timers of any sort here? Not me.

 

[brunger]

Auld timers play at a relatively relaxed pace.

 

[PresterJohn]

WTF mentioned timers of any sort here? Not me.

WTF are you on about? Why would you stumble in here and randomly go on about what you didn't say? Perhaps you meant to say "Whatever......"

"I keep threatening Martin that we'll play with a clock at some point"

 

[Jazz]

Perhaps you meant to say "Whatever......"

WTF are you on about bringing up timers? It does not belong in this thread....but you knew that and brought it up anyhow.

 

[Old Noob]

I'll use a timer on my cooking, not on my ASL play!

 

[Jazz]

I'll use a timer on my cooking, not on my ASL play!

<shrug> to each his own

 

[PresterJohn]

WTF are you on about bringing up timers? It does not belong in this thread....but you knew that and brought it up anyhow.

And maybe you need to read the rest of daveramseys postings instead of making random irrational interjections about things you never did. Is this going to be your schtick now?

 

[FrankH.]

Time doesn't include counter pulling but does include setups and rules checks.

The issue, at least for me, with "fast play", is that the rules for ASL, and the various allowed actions, are far, far more numerous than, say, a game chess. Of course chess is often played with chess clocks. ASL? No one masters the game of chess. No human at least. ASL?

The faster the play (true as well with chess), the more mistakes, and (in contrast with chess), the more outright illegal moves (or, if you will, moves not entirely congruent with the rules) will occur. I see it all the time.

I find it hard enough to follow the many sincere people who (trying to be helpful) display ASL play online. Half the time I think I see a mistake, I am wrong; half the time, I am right; and the other half of the time (it's a joke, people!), I never find out. Let alone what seems to me to be the far too many simply dumb (but entirely legal) moves.

I would like to see some examples/displays of far slower ASL play, much for the sake of instruction and training, wherein both players take sufficient time to carefully decide (and the other player to check!) their moves. The players, and others, online or later, are able to call out illegal moves, errors, and mistakes. Even better, outside commentary on the quality of play (you can see this sort of thing in chess books covering famous matches). Such examples/displays would best commence with some of the very small, but classic, scenarios many average ASL players are already familar with. Then, on to classic but a bit larger scenarios like Hill 621.

That said, apparently no one (I bet!) plays ASL correctly, or at least entirely correctly. Expecially the move advanced chapters, like chapters A through Z. Hence websites like this. Or is this just about the only one?

Do ASL players sleep at night?

 

[Actionjick]

Here's a community challenge (inspired by my post in the chess clocks thread):

How fast can you play a full game of Hill 621? (With no early resignations!) I've played this scenario a couple of times, but it's always taken far too long. Can we get it down to 4 hours or less? Is it a satisfactory experience?

Interested in results (I'll persuade Martin that we can attempt this). So, here are some "rules":

Time doesn't include counter pulling but does include setups and rules checks. Doesn't include breaks. Bonus points if you can allocate your complete time between the two players (ie. Germans took 4 hours, Russians took 4hrs 25 mins, etc)

We played it a lot so I will check the notebooks. I usually recorded start times for each player turn. Interesting.

 

[Actionjick]

Doing a quick scan of some notebooks I found three playings of Hill 621 but only one with the rough notes.

5-24-88
Germans = Fish/Jim. With the balance
Russians = Darryl
Start 2026 hours
Ends 0500
Turn 6A
Germans win

1A 2026 - 2052
1B 2052 - 2128
2A 2128 - 2210
2B 2210 - 2311
3A 2311 - 2356
3B 2356 - 0059
4A 0059 - 0200
4B 0200 - 0252
5A 0256 - 0349
5B 0349 - 0434
6A 0434 - 0500

5-25-88
Germans = Fish/Jim
Russians = Darryl
Start 1900 hours
Ends 0500
Turn ? ( I forgot to copy it today and the notebooks are put away)
Germans win

11-15-89
Germans = Darryl
Russians = Fish
Starts 1800 hours
Ends 0245
Turn 10B
Russians win

The ones from 1988 were with a new player we were teaching the game to so play was not at our normal pace.

The 1989 scenario was more typical of our play. Six hours and forty five minutes, ten turns, nineteen full half turns. That's roughly twenty one minutes a player turn.

To complete twenty player turns in four hours is twelve minutes a turn.

Perhaps doable but you would have to play at a balls to the wall pace. Quite the challenge and probably fun as hell though.

 

[fenyan]

Under 7 hours is a pretty good pace. I think it would take me 9 hours to finish this scenario (at the fastest).

 

[Actionjick]

Do ASL players sleep at night?

We didn't see it as necessary.

Sleep cuts into the gunnin time. Just make a couple more pots of javeine and you will be fine.

 

[Actionjick]

The issue, at least for me, with "fast play", is that the rules for ASL, and the various allowed actions, are far, far more numerous than, say, a game chess. Of course chess is often played with chess clocks. ASL? No one masters the game of chess. No human at least. ASL?

The faster the play (true as well with chess), the more mistakes, and (in contrast with chess), the more outright illegal moves (or, if you will, moves not entirely congruent with the rules) will occur. I see it all the time.

I find it hard enough to follow the many sincere people who (trying to be helpful) display ASL play online. Half the time I think I see a mistake, I am wrong; half the time, I am right; and the other half of the time (it's a joke, people!), I never find out. Let alone what seems to me to be the far too many simply dumb (but entirely legal) moves.

I would like to see some examples/displays of far slower ASL play, much for the sake of instruction and training, wherein both players take sufficient time to carefully decide (and the other player to check!) their moves. The players, and others, online or later, are able to call out illegal moves, errors, and mistakes. Even better, outside commentary on the quality of play (you can see this sort of thing in chess books covering famous matches). Such examples/displays would best commence with some of the very small, but classic, scenarios many average ASL players are already familar with. Then, on to classic but a bit larger scenarios like Hill 621.

That said, apparently no one (I bet!) plays ASL correctly, or at least entirely correctly. Expecially the move advanced chapters, like chapters A through Z. Hence websites like this. Or is this just about the only one?

Do ASL players sleep at night?

What you want is more of a Series Replay but I don't think many are error free. Ours of Guryev's Headquarters certainly wasn't.

 

[Faded 8-1]

WTF mentioned timers of any sort here? Not me.

Well if the idea is to time your match and try to complete it in 4 hours, and breaks don't count, it would require a timer of some sort wouldn't it?

 

[Actionjick]

Doing a quick scan of some notebooks I found three playings of Hill 621 but only one with the rough notes.

5-24-88
Germans = Fish/Jim. With the balance
Russians = Darryl
Start 2026 hours
Ends 0500
Turn 6A
Germans win

1A 2026 - 2052
1B 2052 - 2128
2A 2128 - 2210
2B 2210 - 2311
3A 2311 - 2356
3B 2356 - 0059
4A 0059 - 0200
4B 0200 - 0252
5A 0256 - 0349
5B 0349 - 0434
6A 0434 - 0500

5-25-88
Germans = Fish/Jim
Russians = Darryl
Start 1900 hours
Ends 0500
Turn ? ( I forgot to copy it today and the notebooks are put away)
Germans win

11-15-89
Germans = Darryl
Russians = Fish
Starts 1800 hours
Ends 0245
Turn 10B
Russians win

The ones from 1988 were with a new player we were teaching the game to so play was not at our normal pace.

The 1989 scenario was more typical of our play. Six hours and forty five minutes, ten turns, nineteen full half turns. That's roughly twenty one minutes a player turn.

To complete twenty player turns in four hours is twelve minutes a turn.

Perhaps doable but you would have to play at a balls to the wall pace. Quite the challenge and probably fun as hell though.

The times I listed did not include pulling the counters and setup. Breaks were included but usually the only breaks in play were to use the head and make another pot of javeine.

 

[Vic Provost]

I've played it several times and it always went 8 to 10 hours of actual game time over 2 or 3 sessions. Been awhile since I tried it, never on VASL, might be time for it soon...