ASL Player Ratings

[Actionjick]

As far as I know, only tournament directors could report games to AREA and the same is true for the successor of the 'ASL Player Ratings', which incorporates the AREA data and expanded on it after it went defunct.

I am talking about this AREA.

von Marwitz

Thanks! I did note a few things that might be wrong with some statements in that article. The only one I'll take issue with is Mac being credited with PTO. While that may be true I feel his baby was DTO, having playtested it for him as early as '82 or 83. Nothing PTO back then.

 

[Michael R]

Avalon Hill AREA was for any games. I reported mine for a short while.

 

[Actionjick]

Avalon Hill AREA was for any games. I reported mine for a short while.

Thanks! That was my recollection but a lot of years and refreshments under the bridge.

 

[SSlunt]

I am still struggling to understand the argument here.

Is it to include SK-Players in ASL rankings?

If so, I believe it is nonsense for a variety of reasons.

The gist of this thread was SHOULD there be two Area Ratings or one.

ps I vote for two

 

[bendizoid]

I propose a new rating: whine factor. It is determined by your opponents. Goes on your permanent record.
Let’s see, 1-10 with ‘one’ rated as ‘heroic stoic’ and ‘ten’ rated as ‘pathetic lunitic’/‘wussbag crybaby’.

 

[bendizoid]

roughly 75% win rate.

Pretty close to what I might expect. I’m thinking the few dog scenarios skew the odds down 5% so it’s probably closer to 80% in a balanced scenario. Which coincidently corresponds exactly with the 80% theory of skill over luck.

 

[Sparafucil3]

I propose a new rating: whine factor. It is determined by your opponents. Goes on your permanent record.
Let’s see, 1-10 with ‘one’ rated as ‘heroic stoic’ and ‘ten’ rated as ‘pathetic lunitic’/‘wussbag crybaby’.

Sorry, there's already a whinge scale measured in Youses. Anything below 5 milli-Youses is considered acceptable. -- jim

 

[von Marwitz]

The gist of this thread was SHOULD there be two Area Ratings or one.

ps I vote for two

Thanks, mate.

I agree. Two games, one rating for each.

That said, as the 'ASL Player Ratings' only consider tournaments games fed in by tournament directors, it is an open question if there is a need for 'SK Player Ratings' at all. I am not aware of any notable SK tournament scene. I may be mistaken and gladly stand corrected if one such does indeed exist.

von Marwitz

 

[Stewart]

• By definition, someone who limits oneself to SK rules plays SK and not ASL. So if an ASL player plays SK rules, he ain't playing ASL but SK. If a SK player beats such an ASL player in an SK game, then this game can naturally only be relevant for an SK-ranking - that's what they are playing after all - and not an ASL ranking.

As the name obviously beacons, the 'ASL Player Ratings' are about ASL, not SK.

von Marwitz

Except just as you say, Some SK players are quite proficient...
Yet those that use SK to rank higher in an ASL game is placed playing against players that are usually much lower in the first round or two Yielding an advantage as the lower ranked individuals are less likely to win.

Whereas on the other hand, if NO SK were ranked, the SK player would be ranked lower and because of such ranking play BETTER ASL players overall Skewing the rankings.

 

[Sparafucil3]

Yet those that use SK to rank higher in an ASL game is placed playing against players that are usually much lower in the first round or two Yielding an advantage as the lower ranked individuals are less likely to win.

Or the person is intentionally playing lower ranked opponents or weaker opponents inflating his rating blah blah blah. Any ladder system can be abused. They all have their flaws. -- jim

 

[Larry]

Let's assume that a player has a high ranking from playing SK. The player enters a full-ASL tournament and because he takes low percentage shots activating SAN, doesn't bypass, doesn't late CX, and plays as if no quarter were in effect when it is not, he loses in the first round to a much lower ranked player. The ranking for the SK player drops and the full-ASL player goes up. In the next round, the newly higher ranked ASL player draws a proficient player that spanks him. He drops back down and player C gets a point boost. At the end of the day, A moves down, B stays pretty much where he was, and C moves up in ranking. The SK player that ventures into the deep water gets adjusted.

So B thinks, I can get a higher seed by playing in a bunch of SK tournaments. He does and wins, gaining significant points. B enters a full-ASL tournament, garners a high seed, and loses in the first round. Points gone, or at least some of them. He gets adjusted.

The whole point of seeding is to get the top four players in the semis and the top two players in the finals. That is what the tournament should try to set up. Don't pair the two best players in the first round. A enters with a high rating. Play any full ASL? No. OK, you are the 5-seed in the 8-man bracket. The TD can use other information other than the ranking to seed his tournament. Reputation, scope of scenarios, years playing or not, etc. The TD ... probably a smart guy.

 

[von Marwitz]

Let's assume that a player has a high ranking from playing SK. The player enters a full-ASL tournament and because he takes low percentage shots activating SAN, doesn't bypass, doesn't late CX, and plays as if no quarter were in effect when it is not, he loses in the first round to a much lower ranked player. The ranking for the SK player drops and the full-ASL player goes up. In the next round, the newly higher ranked ASL player draws a proficient player that spanks him. He drops back down and player C gets a point boost. At the end of the day, A moves down, B stays pretty much where he was, and C moves up in ranking. The SK player that ventures into the deep water gets adjusted.

Well, couldn't you with the same line of argument include a player with a high ranking in 'Stratego' or 'Settlers of Catan'?
These are also playing by a different set of rules and what you describe would happen the same way.

But does it make sense? I just don't see the gain.

von Marwitz

 

[Actionjick]

It all seems overly complicated, potentially divisive and not good for the hobby.

Once again what is the point? TDs can seed their event however they like but I would just do it based on experience.

 

[Paul John]

The whole point of seeding is to get the top four players in the semis and the top two players in the finals.

Not necessarily. In some tournaments, the 'top' players start off against each other so that the loser can be a proper minion to the winner, giving points for their later victories to the one who won that first round. The victories of your fallen foes help, so playing the best player possible from the starting gate can be the edge one needs.

That said, it must be understood that ASL is not an exact science and neither are the ratings. I have seen tournaments where an excellent player (not me) went 0-5, etc. etc. The ratings are fun and a great record. I am glad they exist and I like to tease my most common partner using them, but anyone taking them overly seriously is a special kind of knucklehead.

 

[Larry]

Sorry Paul, that is not the purpose of seeding. Brackets separate the top seeds.

for example, I played a game at WO 2020. Lost to the person that eventually won the WO. Other than that, I was 5-1 on the weekend. In a single elimination bracket, I was out in round 2.

 

[Paul John]

Ok, In that tournament and perhaps in the strict definition of the word 'seeding', but there are tournaments that use the system I described and in which playing someone who wins the rest of their games is a huge benefit. Thus meeting top players early is a near necessity to win any tiebreak at tournament end.

 

[PabloGS]

I think one should consider the balance between the cost/hassle for the devoted volunteers that have done this, and the potential issues that may arise from having, maybe, someone skew their rating temporarily by playing a lot of ASLSK against less experienced opponents. I just cannot see this being worth the time and effort.

 

[SSlunt]

I am not aware of any notable SK tournament scene

They are growing in popularity via VASL (as for "notable" that could certainly be debated)

 

[witchbottles]

i don't know. I am maybe too "old school". IMO, seed the tourney by luck of the draw. Each entrant draws a card from a deck of cards shuffled by the TD. Ace of Spades plays Ace of Clubs. Queen of Hearts plays Queen of Diamonds. Etc and so on. This allows up to 52 entrants per tournament.

Then you can design the brackets as single elim, double elim, swiss, or round robin, as the TD prefers. Scenarios selections are NOT pre-announced, so no one gets to "bone up" on their skills in a scenario list for each round before the tourney. Scenarios for each round are limited to three choices. The entrants have 5 minutes to decide amicably among the 3 choices, or the TD will make a dr, and randomly select one for them. Sides are determined randomly.

No room to complain about anything but bad luck in that approach. You might fae a walkover, like me, on round one, or you might face Gary Fortenberry. The luck of the draw is the only decision maker for pairings, across all rounds played. Entrants get exactly 20 minutes to do their setups, period, as a hard and fast rule. Anything not set up by the time the 20 minutes is up is a playing piece that is forfeit.

This design format forces the entrants to begin each round playing by instinct and rules knowledge, rather than by previously prepared "perfect" setups.

But, like I said I am old school on this topic. Some may like the idea, others may not.

 

[Paul John]

maybe too "old school"

I would play in your tournament, but herding ASL players (who I notice have some opinions) probably needs a gentler hand!