ASL Player Ratings

[Stewart]

Then the system is a fluid system as past results that were never submitted for some stupid reason
Tournament ends, results should be in the next week.
Ever think of creating a submission site? Like Roar? No reason why results can't be uploaded during the course of the tournament.
Those that are using "pen and paper" need to wake up and join civilization.
With the skill base of many ASLers this is no excuse.

You should consider a nominal charge to keep the records up to date .
$1 per tournament player.
Anyone who would complain is just a troll.
They spend $800 to go and$20 for a but complains about a service for the tournament?!
They'll pay $200 for a module they never open but not $1 for someone else's hard work.

Results should be in within 30 days or not count. This would remind TD of their responsibilities. As players would complain if their TD never submitted results.

 

[Actionjick]

Then the system is a fluid system as past results that were never submitted for some stupid reason
Tournament ends, results should be in the next week.
Ever think of creating a submission site? Like Roar? No reason why results can't be uploaded during the course of the tournament.
Those that are using "pen and paper" need to wake up and join civilization.
With the skill base of many ASLers this is no excuse.

You should consider a nominal charge to keep the records up to date .
$1 per tournament player.
Anyone who would complain is just a troll.
They spend $800 to go and$20 for a but complains about a service for the tournament?!
They'll pay $200 for a module they never open but not $1 for someone else's hard work.

Results should be in within 30 days or not count. This would remind TD of their responsibilities. As players would complain if their TD never submitted results.

What exactly are a TD's responsibilities?

 

[BattleSchool]

What exactly are a TD's responsibilities?

Free booze (and vino for spectators), free munchies, 24-hour venue, heaps of ASL, cash prizes, posterity Tees, participation name tags, world-class trophies, ASL swag...

 

[Actionjick]

Free booze (and vino for spectators), free munchies, 24-hour venue, heaps of ASL, cash prizes, posterity Tees, participation name tags, world-class trophies, ASL swag...

Well that covers everything on my checklist.

 

[Jacometti]

What exactly are a TD's responsibilities?

What are the responsibilities of anyone organising an event with 30-100 grumpy old men?

 

[Actionjick]

What are the responsibilities of anyone organising an event with 30-100 grumpy old men?

I was thinking that with everything a TD has to handle also being responsible for entering all that data is asking a lot.How many scenarios are played at ASLOk? Modern TD's may have the skills to do it quickly but it still would take hours.

If we would have been responsible for such a task it probably wouldn't have gotten done. See issue three of In Contact for what I mean.

 

[Actionjick]

What are the responsibilities of anyone organising an event with 30-100 grumpy old men?

Trying to keep the air within breathable safety limits?

 

[Jacometti]

I was thinking that with everything a TD has to handle also being responsible for entering all that data is asking a lot.How many scenarios are played at ASLOk? Modern TD's may have the skills to do it quickly but it still would take hours.

If we would have been responsible for such a task it probably wouldn't have gotten done. See issue three of In Contact for what I mean.

ASLOK is a very atypical tournament......most are much smaller and shorter - if you have 5 rounds with 32 players, that is 80 results.

 

[Actionjick]

ASLOK is a very atypical tournament......most are much smaller and shorter - if you have 5 rounds with 32 players, that is 80 results.

Yes the task is not as laborious for smaller events and of course would be easier for the TD.

ASLOk is certainly an atypical tournament. Much more an event built around the frame of a tournament. A heap of scenarios for Bret and Wild Bill to have to enter into a database though.

 

[DougRim]

Well, as long as the original rating of Player B as it was when he played player A, then this decay idea isn't so off-putting.

However, why the unilateral decision making process? We expected you to be in charge of maintaining the rating system, not manipulating it to serve your own opinions of how it should work. Why didn't you consult the hobby about this, one wonders? Perhaps this is your method of doing so, but your means of speaking about it don't support the idea you are asking for hobby approval about this.

I am not in charge of anything. I built a website and added data to it - much of which you helped me collect. That was a personal initiative on my part without a mandate, without permission, and without consultation.

I am not aware of any effective method of consultation across the hobby. GS and FB posts are not "consultation" with the hobby writ large. I don't see tournament TDs consulting widely on how to run tournaments. I don't see the VASL folks (myself included) using any sort of collective decision-making process to determine community priorities and preferences.

In my experience in the hobby, things happen because individuals with energy and enthusiasm make them happen and the community votes with its feet by either going to the tournaments or using the web tools or not.

So, no, I didn't consult. I built something. People can decide if they like it or not.

Now, if this is just a test run to see how people react, then do that but keep it separate from the actual current rating system and report the information on a separate line item for a while.

It doesn't sound like that's your plan, but I hope it is.

Maybe things aren't carved in stone, fine, but you don't make the decision alone, is my point, when the whole hobby is affected. Effectively, the code you are using belongs to the hobby, not you, I'm sure you understand this in principal, even if you disagree with that personally.

I agree with you 100% that the data and the code belong to the hobby and not me personally.

The code that creates the ASL Player Ratings website is available on Github under a GNU Lesser General Public License v2.1. Anyone can download the entirety of the code base and use it without reference to or approval by me or anyone else associated with the website.

The data is available for download from the site itself via a series of .csv files. This was a key principle in building the site; and one of the reasons that people like you helped collect the data.

If anyone does not like what I have done, they are welcome to take the code and the data and create a site of their own. I would even be willing to work with them to help set it up.

I say this in all sincerity. I prefer such a model to an approach layered with consultation and approval processes. But I certainly won't stand in the way of efforts to a work in that fashion.

To sum up, you plan on doing this change, as it seems, without some kind of approval process by the hobby and that is not correct.
a) you need to add separate ratings collections on the website demonstrating the beta data so the whole hobby can look at this together.
b) the decision process about this matter is not solely up to you and you should have and can still propose an approval methodology that the hobby, not just you, finds suitable.

We must agree to disagree.

I don't "need" to do anything, certainly not develop separate ratings collections or propose approval methodologies.

I will certainly continue to work on the website because it interests me and there are some other things I would like to try and do with it. My preference is to do those things and see what people think of the results. Then make changes if I think they are required.

No data has been destroyed or altered. Someone can certainly rework the rating calculation methodology to restore it to its previous state and then upload that to the website. There's a learning curve to that but the site, as with VASL, is open-source. I don't control it. Or someone can create a different site entirely. All this is possible but I don't have any responsibility to do it. I will in no way hinder anyone else from doing it.

 

[Paul John]

We must agree to disagree.

Thanks so much for the well reasoned and thoughtful response. I couldn't agree with you more on all points.

 

[Actionjick]

Thanks so much for the well reasoned and thoughtful response. I couldn't agree with you more on all points.

I agree it was a very good post. As you say very thoughtful and well reasoned.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

In my experience in the hobby, things happen because individuals with energy and enthusiasm make them happen and the community votes with its feet by either going to the tournaments or using the web tools or not.

Keep ploughing ahead, my friend, go where your heart takes ya!

 

[SSlunt]

So, can we now assume that all the the data is current? If yes, then at this point my Highest ranking can now only go up (assuming that I don't degrade)
Am I correct?

 

[DougRim]

So, can we now assume that all the the data is current?

No, there may well still be data from previous tournaments missing. Honosbinda did a great job gathering data from 2017-2020 when I constructed the site but we didn't get all data from all of time. If someone sends me missing data from a legitimate tournament, I am going to add it to the site.

If yes, then at this point my Highest ranking can now only go up (assuming that I don't degrade)
Am I correct?

No. Even if the answer to the first question was yes, the answer to this question is still no. I have at least one request for a correction in my inbox. It appears that the data originally submitted reversed the winner and loser. If I correct that data, and why wouldn't I, then the player whose win becomes a loss may well see their Highest ranking decline. It depends of course on when the game took place.

I know some people hold the view that "old" data should not be added to the site. That would require me to give TDs a deadline by which data had to be submitted or else. I could do that easily enough. I don't want to do that. I am not the ASL police and I don't want to make TDs march to my drum.

 

[Paul John]

I have at least one request for a correction

Yes, I need to get my two wins turned into the losses I so roundly deserved!

 

[BattleSchool]

Drum? Where's that Mayers bloke when ya need 'im?

 

[Stewart]

I know some people hold the view that "old" data should not be added to the site. That would require me to give TDs a deadline by which data had to be submitted or else. I could do that easily enough. I don't want to do that. I am not the ASL police and I don't want to make TDs march to my drum.

You aren't doing it for YOURSELF, you are keeping the data for Each of the TD's. It Helps the Community of TD's have accurate data. NOT submitting their tournaments results within xx days doesn't help the next upcoming tournament (assuming some participants would be playing there as well.)

Why not give a deadline, if that were done, then this manipulation of data wouldn't be necessary.
AND it would behoove the TD's to submit data at end of the tournament...they have all of the data as soon as the Tournament is over...why sit on it for 15yrs?
And the players would want to see their ratings adjusted accordingly. It benefits everyone involved.

Just because most of the ASL community waits 15 yrs for modules to be reprinted, we shouldn't have to wait that long for ratings to be accurate.

You'd think there would be a sponsored tournament site by now.....This could be an automated submission portal to make the process simplified....and honestly, can be done DURING the tournament.

 

[Actionjick]

You aren't doing it for YOURSELF, you are keeping the data for Each of the TD's. It Helps the Community of TD's have accurate data. NOT submitting their tournaments results within xx days doesn't help the next upcoming tournament (assuming some participants would be playing there as well.)

Why not give a deadline, if that were done, then this manipulation of data wouldn't be necessary.
AND it would behoove the TD's to submit data at end of the tournament...they have all of the data as soon as the Tournament is over...why sit on it for 15yrs?
And the players would want to see their ratings adjusted accordingly. It benefits everyone involved.

Just because most of the ASL community waits 15 yrs for modules to be reprinted, we shouldn't have to wait that long for ratings to be accurate.

You'd think there would be a sponsored tournament site by now.....This could be an automated submission portal to make the process simplified....and honestly, can be done DURING the tournament.

And with your experience as a TD you are fully cognizant of what a TD can accomplish during the event.

 

[Actionjick]

You aren't doing it for YOURSELF, you are keeping the data for Each of the TD's. It Helps the Community of TD's have accurate data. NOT submitting their tournaments results within xx days doesn't help the next upcoming tournament (assuming some participants would be playing there as well.)

Why not give a deadline, if that were done, then this manipulation of data wouldn't be necessary.
AND it would behoove the TD's to submit data at end of the tournament...they have all of the data as soon as the Tournament is over...why sit on it for 15yrs?
And the players would want to see their ratings adjusted accordingly. It benefits everyone involved.

Just because most of the ASL community waits 15 yrs for modules to be reprinted, we shouldn't have to wait that long for ratings to be accurate.

You'd think there would be a sponsored tournament site by now.....This could be an automated submission portal to make the process simplified....and honestly, can be done DURING the tournament.

I believe Doug is doing it for himself. I could be wrong but I don't think that he is employed by anyone to amass player ratings.