ASL Player Ratings

[Actionjick]

Nonsense, name one time a ASL player, at a tournament, has ‘sandbagged’ their rating to get some cockamamie advantage. Ridiculous.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I'm saying if one wished to manipulate the rating system to gain an advantage at a tournament the way to do it is to have your ratings be markedly less than your actual skill level. If you are going to juice your rating why inflate it if your goal is to win a tournament?

Lol we didn't use ratings wbitd when I was competing so I can't name a player guilty of sandbagging. I was merely responding to a post where it was said that the poster knew of some players who had juiced their ratings. I was curious if they had inflated or deflated their ratings. I then made the case why if you were going to manipulate your rating you should under represent your actual skill level.
Just a thought experiment of the best way to game the ranking system. I never meant to imply I knew of any such behavior. I sincerely apologize if I gave that impression.

 

[SteffenK]

I remember when that guy in St. Louis - I wish I could remember his name - collected all the reported playings for the General magazine (I think). Me and my roommates reported our very in-house SL playings.

I even met him when one roommate and I went to Cleveland and Hunt Valley in the early 90s.

Back then, AREA was a different thing. The ASL Player Ratings at vasl.info reflect tournament results.
The assumption is that the data is informative.
Every TD is free to rank registrants however they want. I know how I seeded CASLO XXV - appropriately.

 

[Sparafucil3]

ASL player ratings and tournaments are silly IMO. Ever hear of Andy Robin? He isn't in the ASL players ratings. He won Albany twice. As I recall, the first time he won it, he beat a former Albany Champion in each round. -- jim

 

[bendizoid]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I'm saying if one wished to manipulate the rating system to gain an advantage at a tournament the way to do it is to have your ratings be markedly less than your actual skill level. If you are going to juice your rating why inflate it if your goal is to win a tournament?

Lol we didn't use ratings wbitd when I was competing so I can't name a player guilty of sandbagging. I was merely responding to a post where it was said that the poster knew of some players who had juiced their ratings. I was curious if they had inflated or deflated their ratings. I then made the case why if you were going to manipulate your rating you should under represent your actual skill level.
Just a thought experiment of the best way to game the ranking system. I never meant to imply I knew of any such behavior. I sincerely apologize if I gave that impression.

No, you made yourself clear the first time. Can anybody recall one time a player purposely reduced their rating just to get a ill conceived advantage at any future tournament? Preposterous. Ratings are suppose to reflect ability and they do a fine job. If you don’t like them you can opt out, don’t ask me to do the same. Go ahead and do your ‘batter up’ thing, nobody says you shouldn’t.

 

[von Marwitz]

Can anybody recall one time a player purposely reduced their rating just to get a ill conceived advantage at any future tournament?

Have not heard of such a case either. Only of cases where some player avoided playing people that had a somewhat lower AREA-ranking but were still considered somewhat of a risk to play for the reason that losing to them would incur a rather significant loss to his ranking. And of 'sharking' some inexperienced players for the first round of a tournament in which there were no seedings (and in which it does play no role how many wins/losses one's tournament opponents have in their other games for the overall outcome) in order to secure an easy first round win headstart.

The point is, IMHO, as soon as people really want to win that bad, this takes out the fun.
At least that is the case for me. For gawd's sake, it's a friggin' game - not an ego-trip.
I dislike that way of play and avoid such players if I can.

von Marwitz

 

[Actionjick]

No, you made yourself clear the first time. Can anybody recall one time a player purposely reduced their rating just to get a ill conceived advantage at any future tournament? Preposterous. Ratings are suppose to reflect ability and they do a fine job. If you don’t like them you can opt out, don’t ask me to do the same. Go ahead and do your ‘batter up’ thing, nobody says you shouldn’t.

Lol Bob it was Ganjulama who said he knew of players that juiced their ratings. I never implied that I did because ratings were not used at any tournament I ever attended. I was only curious about the juicing and what the objective of it was.

I have no problem with people using rating systems. I don't compete anymore so why should it bother me. If a system works and players like it so much the better for all involved.

Batter Up was just an exploration of alternative systems of rankings which I abandoned later in the thread favoring the much simpler method of just determining player's relative experience levels

Once again if I have offended you or anyone by insinuating that I knew of players who manipulated a rating system please accept my sincerest apologies.

 

[Mister T]

ASL player ratings and tournaments are silly IMO. Ever hear of Andy Robin? He isn't in the ASL players ratings. He won Albany twice. As I recall, the first time he won it, he beat a former Albany Champion in each round. -- jim

The gentleman you quote is part of ASL players ratings. He just hasn't played in a tournament for a long time.

 

[Actionjick]

The gentleman you quote is part of ASL players ratings. He just hasn't played in a tournament for a long time.

It seems he did pretty well when he was.

 

[BattleSchool]

ASL player ratings and tournaments are silly IMO. Ever hear of Andy Robin? He isn't in the ASL players ratings.

Nope.

He won Albany twice. As I recall, the first time he won it, he beat a former Albany Champion in each round. -- jim

Close. Impressive stats, especially considering who he was paired with.

 

[SSlunt]

Did not think that this question needed its own thread as it is related this one

Should tournament games that are not actually played be entered into the Area Rating?
I have seen games that were not played in both FTF tournaments where someone did not show and the other player gets the win, and in VASL tournaments where for what ever the reason a game is not actually played. Regardless if a win is awarded or not. This could also apply to tournament games entered on Roar.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Mister T]

Should tournament games that are not actually played be entered into the Area Rating?
I have seen games that were not played in both FTF tournaments where someone did not show and the other player gets the win, and in VASL tournaments where for what ever the reason a game is not actually played. Regardless if a win is awarded or not. This could also apply to tournament games entered on Roar.

If there is a "no-show", the TD should record the win/loss so that the absentee suffers the consequences of a loss, both for tournament and rating purposes.
If there is an odd number of players, one player may automatically advance without a game. In that case, a win is recorded for ensuring a smooth unfolding of the tournament but it should not be recorded as a win for the ratings imo.

In all cases, TDs should have recourse to common sense when reporting the results to the database.

 

[Stewart]

If there is a "no-show", the TD should record the win/loss so that the absentee suffers the consequences of a loss, both for tournament and rating purposes.
If there is an odd number of players, one player may automatically advance without a game. In that case, a win is recorded for ensuring a smooth unfolding of the tournament but it should not be recorded as a win for the ratings imo.

In all cases, TDs should have recourse to common sense when reporting the results to the database.

So a bye, doesn't increase your rating, but a no show from a guy who had to leave should affect the ratings?
I know that very unlikely to be reported the same way.
No play, no rating, that can really lead to abusing the point system

 

[Stewart]

In all cases, TDs should have recourse to common sense when reporting the results to the database.

There should be consistent rules in what to record for ratings.
Similar rules for reporting to roar as it's a similar tracking feature.
Games your opponent quits in turn 1 because he breaks his kill stack shouldn't count for a win in that game.
But we all know some training scenarios get into roar, because it looks good to have a bunch of"wins".
I have no clue if they exist but should have existed for the last 30yrs.

 

[MajorDomo]

A rating system should only use played games for its data.

No shows, forfeits, byes are not played games.

 

[Eagle4ty]

If a player commits to playing in a tournament and then backs out (no show) after the opponents have been determined and set for that round, the win/loss should be recorded. The player backing out has shown a high degree of disregard for his opponent and should be penalized accordingly whereas his opponent had every intention to play the game and should be rewarded with the win in turn. If on the other hand the player backing out had made prior arrangements with the tournament director and the other player was awarded a bye based upon the unavailability of an opponent, no game should be recorded as none was scheduled and none played. As for forfeits it's the same as a concession during play. A game was scheduled and both players committed to a playing. To deny the player a win because the other player pulled out or at the last moment decided to not play the game is doing a great disservice to the player that had every intention to complete the game regardless of the outcome.

It's bad enough when a player that has committed to playing in a tournament pulls out not completing the tournament fare. This is especially so if their record impacts the standing of his opponents. Barring an emergency that has prevented them from continuing to play, if they pull out because of their record or inability to finish in the top tier, this to me this is just a display of poor sportsmanship and a shows a selfish uncaring attitude towards the other participants and should be penalized accordingly.

 

[SSlunt]

I think you have missed the mark here, no one is suggesting that if you back out or whatever reason that your opponent shouldn’t get the win The question is about recording this in either the area rating or on roar. Putting this result on Roar in my opinion is ridiculous because neither side actually played the game and the side that gets the win is not based on any perceived or actual imbalance/ balance. Putting such a game on Roar starts to screw with the reason for Roar. Let’s face it that is what Roar is used for,.
In a tournament you get the win but nothing should go up on area It was not your skill that got you the win

Done on my phone so forgive me for grammar errors or omissions

 

[Eagle4ty]

I think you have missed the mark here, no one is suggesting that if you back out or whatever reason that your opponent shouldn’t get the win The question is about recording this in either the area rating or on roar. Putting this result on Roar in my opinion is ridiculous because neither side actually played the game and the side that gets the win is not based on any perceived or actual imbalance/ balance. Putting such a game on Roar starts to screw with the reason for Roar. Let’s face it that is what Roar is used for,.
In a tournament you get the win but nothing should go up on area It was not your skill that got you the win

Done on my phone so forgive me for grammar errors or omissions

Games reported on ROAR should be actual games played (and not playtests either) as the function of ROAR seems to be the relative balance of a scenario as expressed in a number of wins/losses experienced by multiple players as reported to the site. The Area Rating of players is another matter entirely. This attempts to rate the relative strength of a player as matched against other players based upon tournament playings. If a player opts to back out of a contest at the last minute without notifying the TD or his opponent of his intention to do so previously that player deserves to be credited with a loss and his opponent with a win. I would leave it to the TD to determine how he would report this to ROAR if he they even decide to.

 

[Stewart]

The Area Rating of players is another matter entirely. This attempts to rate the relative strength of a player as matched against other players based upon tournament playings.

Let me try to understand this.
You want players that don't play the game not exhibiting whatever skill level or lack thereof, to have their rating reduced and increased based on the granted victory.

You want the ASLPR to include these tournament "losses"? technically they are forfeits? Wouldn't that actually create an inaccurate display of skill level since the games were not conducted? One could join one tournament just before a more important tournament and forfeit all of his games to trash his rating to get a more advantageous rating for that upcoming tourney roster?

 

[SteffenK]

... One could join one tournament just before a more important tournament and forfeit all of his games to trash his rating to get a more advantageous rating for that upcoming tourney roster?

Only you would think of that.

 

[RandyT0001]

One could join one tournament just before a more important tournament and forfeit all of his games to trash his rating to get a more advantageous rating for that upcoming tourney roster?

What advantage would there be?

Forfeit games to go from a 1500 rating to a 1400 rating. Before trashing the games the player may have been paired with another player with 1500 rating in the tournament. Now, post trashing, the player is paired with a higher rated player, 1700 or above. This player that trashed his own rating for the 'advantage' to meet a top rated player in round one has to pull an upset victory and defeat this 1700+ player to advance. Repeat wins next round and again and again, and again to finally reach the final round. Everybody in the tournament is AMAZED that this lowly 1400 rated player has beat opponents 300 - 400 points higher in rating and now faces a player with a 1900+ rating. He gives his opponent the balance and proceeds to beat the 1900+ rated player, within two-thirds of available turns for the scenario.

He stands up, shakes his opponent's hand and says, "You played well," then turns to shake other players hands as they smile in awe.

OR

Do not forfeit games to trash your rating from 1500 to 1400 and go into the tournament with the 1500 rating. Beat four opponents of increasing player rating to advance to the final fifth round to face Mister 1900+ player. One again, within two-thirds of available turns the game is won. Hand shakes, back slapping all around for the victory.

Where is the advantage?