Asl oba

Kurt Meyer

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Hi all,
What would German 88L Flak funs firing indirect as OBA IFE be? I would think 80+ IFE but I can't remember ever seeing OBA on this table except for 80+ Battalion Mortar.
 

jrv

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What would German 88L Flak funs firing indirect as OBA IFE be? I would think 80+ IFE but I can't remember ever seeing OBA on this table except for 80+ Battalion Mortar.
I assume by "this table" you mean the German OBA table in chapter H. All the 80+ entries on the OBA table are listed as "M" for mortar, but the OBA table is a tool for ASL scenario design, not a historical reference nor a rule. You are not bound by it. I would put it in as 80+ as a first pass. If I wanted the OBA to be especially powerful (or weak) in my scenario for historical or playability reasons I would consider 100+ (or 70+) also.

JR
 

Vinnie

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It would also depend on the number of guns firing and their ammo load. If fewer tubes or less shells I would reduce it. Not certain I would increase it though.
 

Paul M. Weir

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From what I have gathered, an OBA module is based upon a battery which varied from 4 to 6 guns for normal artillery (the really heavy stuff could have 3 or even as low as 2 guns in a battery). 4 was the most common number, with usually 12 to a battalion (3 batteries).

Exceptions, ignoring infantry/AT or AA guns:
Late war VG divisions had battalions of 7.5cm guns with 6 to a battery, 18 to a battalion as substitutes for 10.5 cm lFH units with 12 to a battalion.
US infantry regimental batteries with 6 M3 105mm guns.
British 25lbr batteries had 2 troops of 4 guns each for 8 per battery, 24 per regiment (battalion equivalent).
Soviet 120mm mortars which were used more as artillery than mortars had initially 4, quickly changed to 6 and often had 7 (!) tubes by late war in the regimental battery.
Soviet 76mm guns were in 4 gun batteries but had from 3 to 5 batteries per regiment/battalion, 5 being the most common post '42 for a total of 20 guns.
US armoured artillery (SP) batteries had 6 M7 for 18 per battalion vs 12 M2 towed guns in infantry divisions, I suppose to compensate for the lack of a 155mm battalion that the infantry division had.

German FlaK:
Light (2cm) batteries could have 9 or 12 FlaK 30/38 in 3/4 troops (platoons) of 4/3 guns each.
Medium (3.7cm) usually had 9 in 3 troops of 3 each.
Heavy (8.8cm) had 6 8.8cm and 3/4 2cm in 3 heavy (8.8cm) troops (2 guns) and a single troop of 2cm (3/4 guns).

One thing, apart from having 6 8.8cm guns vs 4 10.5cm guns is that a FlaK 18/36/37 had a much higher rate of fire (15-20 rpm) than the 10.5 cm (4-6 rpm), roughly 3 times the RoF. While that would have been impractical in aimed fire vs direct point targets, against an area target as a barrage it was quite practical. I recently viewed a clip showing an 88 firing and was quite surprised at the rate, literally a round every 2 or 3 seconds. Though the Germans did not have VT (variable timed, aka proximity) fuses they did have good mechanical fuses and could lay down a reasonable airburst barrage, often commented upon by US and British soldiers.

Even if only firing the same X number of rounds per gun, I would guess that a 8.8cm FlaK barrage would be more effective than a 10.5cm lFH against all except the most dug in troops as more metal per second will get more enemy before they have a chance to find cover in addition to 50% more guns. So if you have a historical situation where the artillery support was heavy FlaK then you might consider treating as 100+ in ASL terms.
 
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jrv

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If you search for "88 flak as field artillery" and similar searches you find a lot of people claiming that the 88 FlaK was not used for indirect fire that often. As they rightly point out, the ammunition was in one piece, meaning you couldn't vary the powder charge, making the only adjustment available to change range was changing the angle of fire. They tend to claim that the Allies called all artillery fire "88s" just like they called all tanks Tigers. I don't know if this is true, but it suggests that if an Allied source calls the fire as from "88s", it may not be so. That said, there also seemed to be a consensus that it was done at least occasionally.

JR
 

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If you search for "88 flak as field artillery" and similar searches you find a lot of people claiming that the 88 FlaK was not used for indirect fire that often. As they rightly point out, the ammunition was in one piece, meaning you couldn't vary the powder charge, making the only adjustment available to change range was changing the angle of fire. They tend to claim that the Allies called all artillery fire "88s" just like they called all tanks Tigers. I don't know if this is true, but it suggests that if an Allied source calls the fire as from "88s", it may not be so. That said, there also seemed to be a consensus that it was done at least occasionally.

JR
I not certain (I am not an expert) you could vary powder charge on guns like the US 105mm howitzer in a variety of its forms as pieces and guns in like the M7 because it was a one piece round too.
 

jrv

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I not certain (I am not an expert) you could vary powder charge on guns like the US 105mm howitzer in a variety of its forms as pieces and guns in like the M7 because it was a one piece round too.
I'm afraid I am not an expert on such things either. With a priest you have to figure they started with a smaller charge as they didn't have to hit airplanes unlike the 88. My searches on the web led me to believe that when an eye-witness reports he was under fire from "88s", that might not be true.

JR
 

jrv

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This is interesting:

One out of every five shells fired by the U.S. Army during the war was 105mm high explosive round. It weighed 42 pounds and was "semi-fixed," meaning it was supplied as a complete round but the shell could be removed from the case and the number of the seven propelling charges could be adjusted for range.
http://www.usarmymodels.com/AFV PHOTOS/105mm HOWITZER/105mm Howitzer.html

This is typical information about the 88: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=139869

JR
 
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