ASL never was developed, would you still be playing SL?

Would you have played SL if ASL never was developed


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Eagle4ty

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There was/is a Jim Stahler effort, published in the eighties, to simulate programmed instruction for ASL. I cannot remember, however, if it assumed a knowledge of SL.
It was presented in ASL Annual '90 and required no knowledge or experience with SL. It was fairly well thought out for its time but not really expanded on much. With just a bit of digging one could certainly find more/better scenarios to add to his list of "training" ones though. Interesting to note that if one looks at the progressive complexity of the PARATROOPER scenarios, they tend to be a pretty good introductory tool for ASL in general.
 

Actionjick

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It was presented in ASL Annual '90 and required no knowledge or experience with SL. It was fairly well thought out for its time but not really expanded on much. With just a bit of digging one could certainly find more/better scenarios to add to his list of "training" ones though. Interesting to note that if one looks at the progressive complexity of the PARATROOPER scenarios, they tend to be a pretty good introductory tool for ASL in general.
Thanks for the info! I believe Fish knew Jim but I can't say if I ever met him. Sorry Jim, I am horrible at remembering people. Might have met at Oktoberfest. One of the games greatest contributors IMO.

When you first confront the ASLRB it is a lot to digest and perhaps could have been presented in a more player friendly format. Having Collateral Attacks so early in the rules was definitely not well thought out. We playtested the rules and that was still a lot to digest at that point. Glad to see that was changed in the 2nd edition.
 

von Marwitz

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Where (IMHO) ASLSK fell short was in developing the infantry combat further without introducing the more complex or time/rule intensive aspects of the rules. For example they could have introduced walls/hedges, fortifications and building/terrain levels, all fairly simple concepts but integral part of ASL, but still avoided bypass movement and its inherent ramifications (as they have done with regards to bypass movement) that entails a wealth of special circumstances and extensive rules to cover them.
That may appear so with hindsight.

But if you see ASLSK as an introduction to ASL (which I believe it was originally intended to be) rather than somewhat of a parallel game (into which it more and more develops), than added detail for infantry combat was not necessary.

Today, as ASLSK seems to be expanded into some form of 'general ASL light'. What was once 12 pages of rules in Starter Kit #1 are now 36 in Starter Kit #4. In ASL (or ASLSK) lingo, that is.

The difference to SL is, that with each new SK Kit, you have a rulebook at incorporates the extra rules rather than patching them on top at the end. What you are lacking is a common "Chapter H" for ASLSK.

This brings me to a question:

SK scenarios are not "universal", i.e. they are keyed ruleswise to the SK or Expansion they came with, because more rules would otherwise possibly affect balance.

Are there SK scenarios published "outside" of SK-Boxes, SK-Expansion Kits, or the SK-HASL?
And if so, is there a reference with which "level" of SK rules it is to be played?

von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

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Interesting to note that if one looks at the progressive complexity of the PARATROOPER scenarios, they tend to be a pretty good introductory tool for ASL in general.
I agree. I was a fan of good ol' Chapter K back in the day.

von Marwitz
 

Cult.44

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...

Are there SK scenarios published "outside" of SK-Boxes, SK-Expansion Kits, or the SK-HASL?
And if so, is there a reference with which "level" of SK rules it is to be played?
I think there are some in MMP's Special OPs magazine and Schwerpunkt's Rally Point 2 is for SK.
 

dwin

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Interesting to speculate if a programmed instruction start to ASL could have negated the need for the ASLSK.
The challenge that ASL created is that to get into the game requires buying the Rulebook and Beyond Valor - a $216 investment. Whereas the ASLSK kits were $91, and the very first one was just $25. So if you weren't sure the $25 route was much more palatable. Paratrooper was an AH ASL attempt to reduce the initial cost of entry.

However what emerged since then is having two different rule systems - as opposed to an entry level system that let you move completely into full ASL. There are some possibilities - for example there could be an ASLSK to ASL module developed. It would be best to have some programmed instruction in that to help player reconfigure how they play. Things like concealment and by-pass movement are significant differences impacting play.

One other idea might be to sell just a programmed instruction version of the rules - in paperback form like the pocket edition of the rules - along with the full rule set - and allow players to use the counters and boards from the ASLSK to work through the programmed instruction. This would then set them up to get into the core ALS modules.
 

Actionjick

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The challenge that ASL created is that to get into the game requires buying the Rulebook and Beyond Valor - a $216 investment. Whereas the ASLSK kits were $91, and the very first one was just $25. So if you weren't sure the $25 route was much more palatable. Paratrooper was an AH ASL attempt to reduce the initial cost of entry.

However what emerged since then is having two different rule systems - as opposed to an entry level system that let you move completely into full ASL. There are some possibilities - for example there could be an ASLSK to ASL module developed. It would be best to have some programmed instruction in that to help player reconfigure how they play. Things like concealment and by-pass movement are significant differences impacting play.

One other idea might be to sell just a programmed instruction version of the rules - in paperback form like the pocket edition of the rules - along with the full rule set - and allow players to use the counters and boards from the ASLSK to work through the programmed instruction. This would then set them up to get into the core ALS modules.
In the What Price ASL thread Randy put the cost for the ASLRB and BV at $145.00. While less than your figure still significant and much more than the $25.00 for the ASLSK. It was also posted that ASLRB Vol. 1 and BV were on Ebay for $100.00.

So one could pick up the SK and if they were interested in the full system the cost would be less than $200.00. Not too bad considering the bang for the buck factor.
 

Actionjick

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Another hypothetical would be if the ASLSK was presented bitd as a transition from SL to ASL would you have used it as a bridge or jumped straight to ASL?

Captain Bacchus says he would have gone straight to ASL. I don't have a clue how the SK would have been viewed back then.
 

hongkongwargamer

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In my experience ASLSK is not necessary for learning ASL. I went straight into ASL myself. The key is to engage experienced players (doesn't even need to be very experienced) and to play THEN read the rules and not the other way around.

For folks who had already played with someone else's set, the price is not a hurdle. Fact of the matter is, as much as each module costs, ASL saved me money 'cause I don't buy anything else. For people who doesn't want to / unable to contact other players, ASLSK is something to buy while they dabble along with a dozen other new games.

Had ASL not been developed. I will be insanely rich and successful.

PS Additional "benefit" from engaging the ASL community early - I got most of my out of print modules from existing players at very reasonable prices (for FREE in a few instances). I didn't really need eBay.

PPS Point of the story: seek out and play opposed EARLY.
 
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Actionjick

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In my experience ASLSK is not necessary for learning ASL. I went straight into ASL myself. The key is to engage experienced players (doesn't even need to be very experienced) and to play THEN read the rules and not the other way around.

For folks who had already played with someone else's set, the price is not a hurdle. Fact of the matter is, as much as each module costs, ASL saved me money 'cause I don't buy anything else. For people who doesn't want to / unable to contact other players, ASLSK is something to buy while they dabble along with a dozen other new games.

Had ASL not been developed. I will be insanely rich and successful.

PS Additional "benefit" from engaging the ASL community early - I got most of my out of print modules from existing players at very reasonable prices (for FREE in a few instances). I didn't really need eBay.

PPS Point of the story: seek out and play opposed EARLY.
Nice post. I entirely agree that a sound approach is to play then read. Of course one has to read some to be able to start playing but the key is to play whenever possible and read when you can't play.

Sigh. Your comment about being rich and successful had ASL not been developed is something I've often thought about. ?
 
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kempenfelter

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...Your comment about being rich and successful had ASL not been developed is something I've often thought about. ?
Because instead of spending all your money on modules, magazines, and scenario packs you would have bought Apple stock? But what if you'd purchased Xerox shares instead? On the other hand, you could have written a best-selling novel or two or twenty-five. Think of the hours and hours and hours you've spent staring at the boards. What if you'd been using that time pecking away at a typewriter? You could have been another Harold Robbins.

Though I don't think I'd still be playing Squad Leader if ASL had never come along, I do regret dumping all my Squad Leader stuff. And giving away my near mint 1976 Starship Troopers.
 

Actionjick

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Because instead of spending all your money on modules, magazines, and scenario packs you would have bought Apple stock? But what if you'd purchased Xerox shares instead? On the other hand, you could have written a best-selling novel or two or twenty-five. Think of the hours and hours and hours you've spent staring at the boards. What if you'd been using that time pecking away at a typewriter? You could have been another Harold Robbins.

Though I don't think I'd still be playing Squad Leader if ASL had never come along, I do regret dumping all my Squad Leader stuff. And giving away my near mint 1976 Starship Troopers.
Perhaps could have become filthy rich and produced the Starship Troopers movie the way it should have been done!!!

Played Starship Troopers a few times wbitd. Rather enjoyed it IIRC.
 

dwin

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In the What Price ASL thread Randy put the cost for the ASLRB and BV at $145.00. While less than your figure still significant and much more than the $25.00 for the ASLSK. It was also posted that ASLRB Vol. 1 and BV were on Ebay for $100.00.

So one could pick up the SK and if they were interested in the full system the cost would be less than $200.00. Not too bad considering the bang for the buck factor.
Was just using the current prices on the MMP website...
 

Actionjick

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The cost per hour for ASL enjoyment most likely one of the best bargains in entertainment. Very easy to be biased in that direction.
 
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