ASL never was developed, would you still be playing SL?

Would you have played SL if ASL never was developed


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Mister T

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A very good game; Neither as broad nor as deep as ASL.
A very elegant design: much content in a small package.

Now followed by "Imperial Struggle": the century-long fight between Britain and France for world domination. To be assessed
 

Fort

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Does anyone know much about 'Twilight Struggle' the Cold War game. It is the #1 wargame and #9 overall. 15 years old. Must be quite something to have such high rankings.
Lots of GMT fans pad the ratings. Twilight Struggle is a very good game, but it's not a wargame and its not in the top 10 overall, IMHO. Gloomhaven is an ok game, it has rabid fans, but it has no depth of play and once you've completed the storyline there is very little replayability.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Lots of GMT fans pad the ratings.
The biggest game at the BGG website is screwing with the online ratings, not just of wargames but the whole catalogue there. The ratings are fun, but not to be taken seriously. More useful are individual comments given with the ratings. It's like movie reviews - find someone who has the same tastes as you do, and then follow what they say about new releases.
 

dwardzala

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Lots of GMT fans pad the ratings. Twilight Struggle is a very good game, but it's not a wargame and its not in the top 10 overall, IMHO. Gloomhaven is an ok game, it has rabid fans, but it has no depth of play and once you've completed the storyline there is very little replayability.
I agree that TS is not a war game. It is an area control games that is card driven. It is a good game, though. Whether it makes your top 10 list as a game in general is a matter of opinion.
 

Fort

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I agree that TS is not a war game. It is an area control games that is card driven. It is a good game, though. Whether it makes your top 10 list as a game in general is a matter of opinion.
Yes, it is obvious that a post about a preference is a matter opinion, especially when followed by ‘IMHO’...which, literally, means In My Humble OPINION.
But, thanks for the clarification...as unnecessary as it may have been.
 

wrongway149

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Yes, it is obvious that a post about a preference is a matter opinion, especially when followed by ‘IMHO’...which, literally, means In My Humble OPINION.
But, thanks for the clarification...as unnecessary as it may have been.
Nice to see you, Gary . And just as opinionated and sarcastic as always. Wouldn't have it any other way!!!
 

von Marwitz

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I'm sure they say the same thing about us. But we aren't as biased. :)
I think a couple of years ago, this rating stuff on BGG came up. Someone around here rallied the ASLers to the flag to cast their vote on BGG - and lo and behold - all of a sudden the rank of ASL was soaring up. Can't remember exactly what kind of ranking list it was. Not that it would matter...

von Marwitz
 

Michael Dorosh

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I think a couple of years ago, this rating stuff on BGG came up. Someone around here rallied the ASLers to the flag to cast their vote on BGG - and lo and behold - all of a sudden the rank of ASL was soaring up. Can't remember exactly what kind of ranking list it was.
"Best" is a meaningless title, which disguises the fact that the ratings are a popularity contest. There's nothing wrong with popularity contests, but sometimes people get confused and think such lists are objectively measuring something. It's not a terrible way to start a search for a new game to get into, "popular" games have the advantage of large communities (like GS?) where opponents and help can be found.
 

Actionjick

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Nice to see you, Gary . And just as opinionated and sarcastic as always. Wouldn't have it any other way!!!
If he wasn't I'd look in his basement for a large, peculiar looking pod! The body snatchers strike where least expected and most effective. ?
 

Gwinnell

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Does anyone know much about 'Twilight Struggle' the Cold War game. It is the #1 wargame and #9 overall. 15 years old. Must be quite something to have such high rankings.
It's fantastic, play it!
Not sure it is good for solo though.
 

Actionjick

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Thanks to all of you who participated in the poll. Captain Bacchus and I will mull over the results. Thanks again.
 

dwin

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Actually, I first bought SL in preference over ASL because of the programmed instruction.

However, I quickly realized that if one would delve deeper into SL with the intention of using all its four modules that it would become a PITA to find rules references later, because the programmed instructions entailed a lack of structure in the body of the SL rules.

With ASL, it was exactly the other way around: You had all the rules perfectly structured [cough, cough - but altogether it is true...], while the issue for the initiate was to find those within this intimidating tome that really mattered at the beginning.

von Marwitz
Programmed Instruction was very important to the initial acceptance of SL. But as stated above - with each gamette came another rules booklet and the cross referencing was difficult as rules from previous games were revised. For example in the first gamette, Cross of Iron, the first two rules in the booklet were 63. New Artillery Characteristics, 64. New Armor Characteristics.

However there were two things that made it a real asset. The first obvious one was a better progression of learning that was well thought out and done in bite size chunks, so you didn't have to read a couple of hundred pages of rules - and then try to play. To play the first scenario in SL required reading only 6 pages and playing The Guards Counterattack - which then hooked a lot players on the game. For the second scenario - 1 page of rules to read - and you were quickly into the game.

But the second benefit was equally as useful, and that was you would read a group of rules and then the next scenario focused on just those rules to reenforce the learning. Two good examples - For the sixth scenario you read only the Night Rules - and for the eighth scenario you read just the wire and entrenchment rules. Having to read just a couple of rules and then play a scenario focused on them helped both learning, and understanding how those rules impacted what decisions you would make.
 

Actionjick

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Programmed Instruction was very important to the initial acceptance of SL. But as stated above - with each gamette came another rules booklet and the cross referencing was difficult as rules from previous games were revised. For example in the first gamette, Cross of Iron, the first two rules in the booklet were 63. New Artillery Characteristics, 64. New Armor Characteristics.

However there were two things that made it a real asset. The first obvious one was a better progression of learning that was well thought out and done in bite size chunks, so you didn't have to read a couple of hundred pages of rules - and then try to play. To play the first scenario in SL required reading only 6 pages and playing The Guards Counterattack - which then hooked a lot players on the game. For the second scenario - 1 page of rules to read - and you were quickly into the game.

But the second benefit was equally as useful, and that was you would read a group of rules and then the next scenario focused on just those rules to reenforce the learning. Two good examples - For the sixth scenario you read only the Night Rules - and for the eighth scenario you read just the wire and entrenchment rules. Having to read just a couple of rules and then play a scenario focused on them helped both learning, and understanding how those rules impacted what decisions you would make.
Very nice.
 

Actionjick

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Programmed Instruction was very important to the initial acceptance of SL. But as stated above - with each gamette came another rules booklet and the cross referencing was difficult as rules from previous games were revised. For example in the first gamette, Cross of Iron, the first two rules in the booklet were 63. New Artillery Characteristics, 64. New Armor Characteristics.

However there were two things that made it a real asset. The first obvious one was a better progression of learning that was well thought out and done in bite size chunks, so you didn't have to read a couple of hundred pages of rules - and then try to play. To play the first scenario in SL required reading only 6 pages and playing The Guards Counterattack - which then hooked a lot players on the game. For the second scenario - 1 page of rules to read - and you were quickly into the game.

But the second benefit was equally as useful, and that was you would read a group of rules and then the next scenario focused on just those rules to reenforce the learning. Two good examples - For the sixth scenario you read only the Night Rules - and for the eighth scenario you read just the wire and entrenchment rules. Having to read just a couple of rules and then play a scenario focused on them helped both learning, and understanding how those rules impacted what decisions you would make.
Interesting to speculate if a programmed instruction start to ASL could have negated the need for the ASLSK.
 

Michael R

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Interesting to speculate if a programmed instruction start to ASL could have negated the need for the ASLSK.
There was/is a Jim Stahler effort, published in the eighties, to simulate programmed instruction for ASL. I cannot remember, however, if it assumed a knowledge of SL.
 

Actionjick

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There was/is a Jim Stahler effort, published in the eighties, to simulate programmed instruction for ASL. I cannot remember, however, if it assumed a knowledge of SL.
I can't remember ever seeing that. I've been thinking about PI for ASL. It really could have made it easier for those not familiar with SL. I would have redone he first SL scenarios for ASL and included the rest of the BV scenarios in BV. Interesting to think about. Another " what if "

Jim Stahler. One of the giants of the game!??
 

Eagle4ty

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Interesting to speculate if a programmed instruction start to ASL could have negated the need for the ASLSK.
Advanced ASL was, I think, an effort to provide the SL savvy crowd with a more complete and better thought out game system, leaving SL there as an introductory tool. In fact for many moons that is what was expected. However, it became increassingly apparent that SL taught many "wrong" principals of ASL, not to mention the counters were all wrong or at least not particularly compatible to the new game.

ASLSK was formulated intended to follow the programmed instruction trend using the current units/counters found in ASL and for the most part compatible rules. Infantry combat was presented first then added levels of complexity in following releases. Perhaps the scenario presentation format within the offers could have been better structured, perhaps even to the point of following and noting the old SL progression technique, to acclimate players to the system however. Where (IMHO) ASLSK fell short was in developing the infantry combat further without introducing the more complex or time/rule intensive aspects of the rules. For example they could have introduced walls/hedges, fortifications and building/terrain levels, all fairly simple concepts but integral part of ASL, but still avoided bypass movement and its inherent ramifications (as they have done with regards to bypass movement) that entails a wealth of special circumstances and extensive rules to cover them.
 

Actionjick

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Advanced ASL was, I think, an effort to provide the SL savvy crowd with a more complete and better thought out game system, leaving SL there as an introductory tool. In fact for many moons that is what was expected. However, it became increassingly apparent that SL taught many "wrong" principals of ASL, not to mention the counters were all wrong or at least not particularly compatible to the new game.

ASLSK was formulated intended to follow the programmed instruction trend using the current units/counters found in ASL and for the most part compatible rules. Infantry combat was presented first then added levels of complexity in following releases. Perhaps the scenario presentation format within the offers could have been better structured, perhaps even to the point of following and noting the old SL progression technique, to acclimate players to the system however. Where (IMHO) ASLSK fell short was in developing the infantry combat further without introducing the more complex or time/rule intensive aspects of the rules. For example they could have introduced walls/hedges, fortifications and building/terrain levels, all fairly simple concepts but integral part of ASL, but still avoided bypass movement and its inherent ramifications (as they have done with regards to bypass movement) that entails a wealth of special circumstances and extensive rules to cover them.
A very well thought out response. ??
 
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