ASL in the Desert: the West of Alamein replacement product

Bob Walters

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Naturally we're not going to disabuse each other of our personal opinions, but it's interesting to talk about, and if anyone feels the desert is not well loved by MMP, all I can do is offer my own view why that might be.

Tunisia had a lot of continental type terrain so I don't include it in comments about the desert. Longstop and the Churchills come to mind, this was all to my mind rather conventional stuff and you wouldn't need the desert chapter rules to do it.

I don't doubt the desert is unique, but that's why it's a turn off for me. Heavy rules overhead and probably not going to sell in the US as well as PTO, which despite the rules overhead seems to attract more popularity.

Note that most of the things you mention as appeal aren't really applicable to ASL. Long range tank battles - they were firing 88s out several kilometres, you're not going to see that in an average ASL scenario, and if you could, what fun would it be? POWs - irrelevant. Patton? Irrelevant. ANZACs? Irrelevant (just British counters with a different unit name on the scenario card).

LRDG are represented in the Special Forces module I think - I obtained a copy via Justiciar if I remember correctly. I'll give you that one - but of course, that wasn't MMP.

I enjoyed AN ARMY AT DAWN and found it fascinating to read about the early US Army going against the Germans. All good stuff, but far more interesting to me to read about Lloyd Fredendall and his bunker than any of the stuff that could be replicated in ASL as a scenario - be it Patton's son in law getting his tank unit blown to pieces, or Patton winning El Guettar with massed artillery.
One of the best books I have ever read about WW2 was Panzer Battles by von Mellenthin. His chapters on desert warfare with Rommel capture the imagination and I do not see why some of it could not be replicated in an ASL scenario. The desert need not be onerously rule heavy it is not necessary to get bogged down in minutia. Heck, this is already done in most other areas, after all the vast majority of casualties in WW2 were caused by artillery. I doubt most find that the case in the scenarios they play.
 

Robin Reeve

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Making DTO more attractive = using the announced recast of Chapter F to cut down DTO rules to make them more palatable for all of us.

Two exemples:

- remove the tons of DRs needed for hammada immobilisation and replace it with something more elegant
- simplify hillock rules, maybe not as simplified as BFP's European hillock but certainly more compact than the current ones

Errare Humanum est
Perseverare Diabolicum

(or something like this)
Agreed.
I would advocate (and I have, previously) streamlining some of the chapter G rules too ( Panjis, Caves, Seaborne Assaults, ...) and making them official optional rules.
 

Vinnie

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Apart from Hillocks, which are difficult to get your head around (not too bad once you get into them) the Chapter F rules are not too onerous.
Hammada is a map issue. Just don't have as much and it's fine.
The real problem stems from trying to get a different feel.
 

Justiciar

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....after all the vast majority of casualties in WW2 were caused by artillery. I doubt most find that the case in the scenarios they play.
Not to expunge your earlier remarks, which stand.

The reason that OBA does not show up in ASL as you note, has been commented on by others better than I can encapsulate here. A) the ASL battle is taking place after the arty prep, B) arty in ASL is too fickle 2 red cards your done (Pleva rule a good stop gap), the first draw black is another stop gap fix, C) the object of ASL is a DFE small arms / CC engagements, (with some AFV and guns thrown in), not* the casualty maker of arty upon WWII 'tactics'.
 

Mister T

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Apart from Hillocks, which are difficult to get your head around (not too bad once you get into them) the Chapter F rules are not too onerous.
Hammada is a map issue. Just don't have as much and it's fine.
The real problem stems from trying to get a different feel.
DTO is a failure. PTO is a success. Why? Because one can play casual PTO scenarios without involving panjis, straying, rice paddies, caves, seaborne assaults, animal-pack and so on. Spontaneously there was a natural selection of suitable and accessible rules that allowed PTO to become popular. It is not possible for designers to do that in the current state of DTO. Maps are to blame. But rules as well.
 

zgrose

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How many terrain types does it take before it's not casually playable...? When playing ETO you have about 30 terrain types in play. In F you have 7 plus a few overlaps and everything you see on the map represents what it is. In PTO there are 7 new terrains that usually make what you see on the map not behave like you're used to plus you add a nationality that almost requires a full page to describe how to fail a Morale Check.

I'm not convinced the content of chapter F was the issue. Lots of overlays (never popular) and a battlefield not glamorized by Hollywood would be where I cast the "blame."
 

Philippe D.

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I'm not sure the terrain is that much to blame (though, with PTO, the new terrains are simpler than those of DTO; most are "treated as X except where noted").

But by the nature of the terrain, PTO lends itself to fights of the type where ASL excels: either pure infantry, or infantry with some armored support, mostly at close range. DTO seems to be all about long range armor engagements; any infantry fights are done in very poor cover territory. To me, this is why PTO works so well compared to DTO.

(Plus, the Japanese rock, just because a few pages of national capability rules make such a hugely different nation to play. I know not all PTO fights involve the Japanese, but they sure are an interesting factor)
 

klasmalmstrom

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I don't think it is realistic to expect MMP to produce anything new or improved for the ASL DTO players.
Not unless someone starts designing such and submitting it to MMP, I would probably agree.


As much as I enjoy their products, the reality is that MMP'S projects and products are firmly ensconced within the Eastern Front and 1944-45 NW Europe.
MMP's projects are primarily based on what people design and submit to them.
 

Yuri0352

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How many terrain types does it take before it's not casually playable...? When playing ETO you have about 30 terrain types in play. In F you have 7 plus a few overlaps and everything you see on the map represents what it is. In PTO there are 7 new terrains that usually make what you see on the map not behave like you're used to plus you add a nationality that almost requires a full page to describe how to fail a Morale Check.

I'm not convinced the content of chapter F was the issue. Lots of overlays (never popular) and a battlefield not glamorized by Hollywood would be where I cast the "blame."
Very well said...especially the second half of your last sentence.
 

Yuri0352

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DTO is a failure. PTO is a success. Why? Because one can play casual PTO scenarios without involving panjis, straying, rice paddies, caves, seaborne assaults, animal-pack and so on. Spontaneously there was a natural selection of suitable and accessible rules that allowed PTO to become popular. It is not possible for designers to do that in the current state of DTO. Maps are to blame. But rules as well.
You are aware that one can play 'casual' (as opposed to formal?) DTO scenarios without using heavy dust, Sun blindness, heat haze, hillocks, escarpments, wadis, cactus patches, tracks, etc.,

Right?
 
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Yuri0352

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Making DTO more attractive = using the announced recast of Chapter F to cut down DTO rules to make them more palatable for all of us.
I see nothing palatable in that idea/speculation.

Have you considered acquiring a copy of Avalon Hill's Tobruk? It seems that the terrain rules in that game would be much more to your liking.
 

Mister T

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I see nothing palatable in that idea/speculation.

Have you considered acquiring a copy of Avalon Hill's Tobruk? It seems that the terrain rules in that game would be much more to your liking.
I am happy to see one enthusiastic DTO player. Alas you might be a tad isolated. I like the theater from an historical pov so it is a pity it has become what it is now: a derelict sub-set of ASL.

I don't know AH's Tobruk but i trust your judgement as it certainly better matches my limited cognitive abilities.
 

witchbottles

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I am happy to see one enthusiastic DTO player. Alas you might be a tad isolated. I like the theater from an historical pov so it is a pity it has become what it is now: a derelict sub-set of ASL.

I don't know AH's Tobruk but i trust your judgement as it certainly better matches my limited cognitive abilities.
DTO is a very interesting theater for ASL IMO, and one I offer to play in some subset whenever anyone asks for scenario ideas, along with the "regular" ETO and PTO ideas.

The main issue IMO with the DTO as it stood in West of Alamein / Hollow Legions v1:

overlays.

Pretty much everything in the original presentation of DTO required overlays to play it. It is and has been a fact of ASL that the number of playings of any scenario is inversely proportional to the number of overlays require to be placed before the game begins. Each one you must place will halve the number of expected playings.

Yes, the 21st century and VASL have gone a long way to addressing that issue, making overlays not nearly as ominous as they once were.

The reason PTO was accepted better was simply due to the fact that a large portion of it did not and does not require overlays to play.

Fix the DTO boards to offer up some printed features like deirs, wadis and sand dunes and hillocks. DTO will gain popularity when boards like that are designed into scenarios.

YMMV

KRL, Jon H
 

Brad M-V

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Because of the ranges in some DTO engagements, having infantry, Gun & AFV counters all at the 1/2" size would help relieve table space if the geoboards also came in a 1/2" hex size. Dense stacking shouldn't be an issue for a DTO battle so effectively doubling up gun battle distances without using unreasonable amounts table real estate might be another new approach to use.
 

Bob Walters

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Not to expunge your earlier remarks, which stand.

The reason that OBA does not show up in ASL as you note, has been commented on by others better than I can encapsulate here. A) the ASL battle is taking place after the arty prep, B) arty in ASL is too fickle 2 red cards your done (Pleva rule a good stop gap), the first draw black is another stop gap fix, C) the object of ASL is a DFE small arms / CC engagements, (with some AFV and guns thrown in), not* the casualty maker of arty upon WWII 'tactics'.
That was my point.
 

Yuri0352

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I am happy to see one enthusiastic DTO player. Alas you might be a tad isolated. I like the theater from an historical pov so it is a pity it has become what it is now: a derelict sub-set of ASL.

I don't know AH's Tobruk but i trust your judgement as it certainly better matches my limited cognitive abilities.
I'm serious in my Tobruk recommendation. This was the game which sparked my interest in DTO from a boardgaming standpoint. Tobruk is on the same tactical unit size level as ASL, i.e. individual AFV'S/guns/squads. The rules are easy to learn, without the terrain/EC minutia of ASL. There is a bit of book keeping with regards to casualties however. The chief limiting factor of Tobruk is that it is specific to the 1942 Gazala offensive.

I'm an unabashed North Africa aficionado as you may have guessed, and I eventually drifted away from Tobruk in order to embrace the added complexity of the DTO as portrayed by ASL.
 

Cpl Uhl

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DTO vs PTO. Maybe its the vehicle:terrain relation that causes difficulty. For infantry the chapter F rules aren't too onerous. For vehicles they are. In PTO there are never so many vehicles and most of the special PTO terrain effects on vehicles are simple (usually no entry) or easily avoidable.
 

djohannsen

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I'm serious in my Tobruk recommendation.
I agree. Though I am not expert in either game, my recollection of AH Tobruk is that armor on armor battles are more satisfying and more elegantly represented in Tobruk than ASL.

(Of course the ASL system offers so much more than just tank on tank fights...)
 
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