ASL goes to Korea!

[Eagle4ty]

Specifically, the US Army morale of 5 in Korea would reflect the tendency to 'bug out' when under strong attack. However, the USMC's willingness to stand firm should be reflected by the higher morale value that they currently have in real ASL.

I tend to agree here as the USMC never really bought into the Atomic Warfare myth of the time nor were they relegated to occupation force duties to the extent that the US Army units initially sent to Korea were and remained true to their basic historical mission and training as a shock force.

 

[FMFCB]

I don't recall Chosin being posted. As JRK noted, Scott did load a Seoul scenario.

Just though I would ask in case I missed something.
Dave

 

[Brian W]

It was in fact much, much more than a victory. It helped seal the deal that the USMC would remain in existence to this day.

As I said, it all depends on how narrowly you define victory. No one defines victory more narrowly than the participants of an inter-service fight.

 

[Eagle4ty]

Being Army myself, I certainly would not intend to say that the entire US Army force portrayed throughout the 1950-53 Korean Conflict should be portrayed as with an abysmal ELR. However, the initial forces certainly didn't react well to the initial NKPA attacks except a few Army advisor led South Korean led forces and in very limited US actions prior to firming up on the Pusan Perimeter. By the time the 1st CAV & 173rd had been committed, the quality of US Army forces had greatly increased and US Army units performed outstandingly in under critical situations (The Chosin battle while the most notable wasn't the only instance that overstretched UN forces were surrounded and forced to fight heroically and with a great deal of professionalism to extricate themselves from far North Korea). However, the initial forces fed into Korea were poorly trained and poorly prepared to meet a determined conventional ground foe and reacted accordingly, their performance would be considered marginal at best until they had reached the Pusan Perimeter.

 

[Justiciar]

I tend to agree here as the USMC never really bought into the Atomic Warfare myth of the time ....

The USMC did buy into atomic warfare. In fact the commandant ordered that high rank officers witness the atomic tests and what impact these would have on the Corps (the Corps was never going to have a nuke itself of course) and concluded from these that dispersion was the order of the day, and a smaller footprint was required for a division too. This lead to the J-series TO/E of the time. Very slim indeed. See "Forgotten Warriors" p. 59-60. But in passim on that subject too.

 

[Felix Sulla]

I hope that you didn't sustain any injuries while leaping to that conclusion.

Ah, I see that you are master of the non sequitur.

 

[Kevin Kenneally]

As far as Korea goes, the US Army lost several units to encirclement by the end of 1950;

8th Cavalry Regiment (1Bn +); Battle of Unsan; Unit was surprised at night by the new combatant into the war (Chinese Volunteer Army) and the 3rd Battalion was lost, as well as the Regimental CP.

31st Regt Combat Team (2Bns +); East of Chosin - This venture was the US Army's hope to beat the USMC to the Yalu River.

24th Inf Regiment (1Bn +); Battle of Chongchon River line - The 3rd Battalion was almost wiped out and caused the Turkish Brigade to almost be encircled as well. The Turkish Brigade fought very well and saved the Eighth Army from total destruction.

By the end of 1950, the Allies were trying to hold on wherever they could. The Chinese hid during the day and fought at night.

 

[mooreshawnm]

I'll just drop off this little piece right here. I'm biased as I spent nearly half my 10 years in 1/23.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chipyong-ni

'Casualties on the UN side of the conflict were 51 killed, 250 wounded, and 42 missing. The Chinese lost approximately 1,000 killed and 2,000 wounded.（[5]

The battle offered an incredible boost to the morale of Eighth Army, which had up until now seen the Chinese as an invincible juggernaut. Soon afterwards, Operation Killer was launched, followed by Operation Ripper. The Chinese, who had hopes of driving the UN forces to the sea, were themselves driven back. Eventually, this led to the start of peace negotiations in July 1951.

Matthew Ridgway, speaking to Congress in May 1952, said of the battle:

I shall speak briefly of the Twenty-third United States Infantry Regiment, Colonel Paul L. Freeman commanding, [and] with the French Battalion….Isolated far in advance of the general battle line, completely surrounded in near-zero weather, they repelled repeated assaults by day and night by vastly superior numbers of Chinese. They were finally relieved….I want to say that these American fighting men, with their French comrades-in-arms, measured up in every way to the battle conduct of the finest troops America and France have produced throughout their national existence.[2]

The Chinese leadership, in a critique of the battle, stated that

In the conduct of the....battle command, we have underestimated the enemy. In view of their past characteristics in battle, we expected the enemy to flee at Chipyong-ni...

 

[Kevin Kenneally]

I'll just drop off this little piece right here. I'm biased as I spent nearly half my 10 years in 1/23.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chipyong-ni

'Casualties on the UN side of the conflict were 51 killed, 250 wounded, and 42 missing. The Chinese lost approximately 1,000 killed and 2,000 wounded.（[5]

The battle offered an incredible boost to the morale of Eighth Army, which had up until now seen the Chinese as an invincible juggernaut. Soon afterwards, Operation Killer was launched, followed by Operation Ripper. The Chinese, who had hopes of driving the UN forces to the sea, were themselves driven back. Eventually, this led to the start of peace negotiations in July 1951.

Matthew Ridgway, speaking to Congress in May 1952, said of the battle:

I shall speak briefly of the Twenty-third United States Infantry Regiment, Colonel Paul L. Freeman commanding, [and] with the French Battalion….Isolated far in advance of the general battle line, completely surrounded in near-zero weather, they repelled repeated assaults by day and night by vastly superior numbers of Chinese. They were finally relieved….I want to say that these American fighting men, with their French comrades-in-arms, measured up in every way to the battle conduct of the finest troops America and France have produced throughout their national existence.[2]

The Chinese leadership, in a critique of the battle, stated that

In the conduct of the....battle command, we have underestimated the enemy. In view of their past characteristics in battle, we expected the enemy to flee at Chipyong-ni...

By January 1951, the Chinese were over-confident and decided to attack the center of the UN lines...

Yup, by that time, the UN Forces were tired of being pushed around and they decided to begin to punish the Chinese.

This change in tactic surprised the Chinese and caused them many casualties over the next few months until the lines began to stabilize in May 1951.

 

[FourDeuceMF]

If anything, TF Faith should initially be given '667s', given it was their sacrifice that held open the door for the Marines to get through.

TF Faith - the 'Hodor' of the Chosin campaign. Often forgotten. Probably with the same range of vocabulary. ;-)

 

[FourDeuceMF]

Folks shouldn't worry - the US Army is appropriately crap in the initial intervention (mostly should be 5-4-6), given not only the 'morale hit' of a generation fighting their 'second' war, squad size reduction, being treated like shit by Louis B. Johnson in the drawdown, lack of preparedness, etc.. There are rules that cover the sorry state of the US Army in the initial intervention. Lowering the ML to '5' is ludicrous, however, given the mathematics of the game, not to mention many other factors.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

It was in fact much, much more than a victory. It helped seal the deal that the USMC would remain in existence to this day.

How so you ask?

Given the interwar period 1946-1950, the USMC was on the chopping block on so many levels it could well have been abolished given the budget of the time. I recommend "Forgotten Warriors" by T.X. Hammes.

Had the Chinese actually defeated and wiped out the 1st Marine Division. I am dead certain no mater what happened in the war. The US Army and the USAF...and in the end even the Navy 'chiefs' would have said to Congress...."take them off the rolls and give us their money and manpower and we can do their job." The Army would have said "we know how to land troops from the shore witness our operations at Normandy, in the Philippines etc", the USAF would have said "with a nuke who needs troops on the ground anyways, we can make more bombers"...and the Navy would have said "if we don't need ships to move them and their gear, then that is another aircraft carrier, air wing, submarines for the US."

No Chosin was an epic victory for the Corps from top to bottom.

 

[Justiciar]

It is a good and interesting read. Hope you enjoy it.

 

[Delirium]

An interesting piece concerning Korean history in the latest edition of the London Review of Books, which gives some insights into the Northern and Southern Korea regimes, then and now:

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n10/bruce-cumings/a-murderous-history-of-Korea

 

[Helmseye]

Very interesting thread, thank you for the book advice

From a British point of view the book "the Korean War" by max Hastings is an interesting overview of the war

An interesting point he makes that may of contributed to the initial lack of co-ordinated response to attack is that 'who would attack a nuclear power' like the USA

At that time many thought they had to prepare for world war rather than anything else

 

[von Marwitz]

From a British point of view the book "the Korean War" by max Hastings is an interesting overview of the war

I liked that one, too.

von Marwitz

 

[Mister T]

An interesting piece concerning Korean history in the latest edition of the London Review of Books, which gives some insights into the Northern and Southern Korea regimes, then and now:

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n10/bruce-cumings/a-murderous-history-of-Korea

Very interesting article, far from the clichés commonly heard

 

[Gunner Scott]

Is KWASL shipping?

 

[von Marwitz]

Is KWASL shipping?

On Monday.

von Marwitz

 

[Jeffrey D Myers]

Cyber-Monday 2018, that is....