Felix Sulla
Recruit
The Minors no, the Italians and Chinese yes.
ASL goes to Korea!
- Thread starter Proff3RTR
- Start date
Yet another round of the never ending USA vs USMC war. You're as bad as the IJA vs IJN feud. 
I tend to agree that USA performance was quite bad in the early days. While an abysmal ERL would be one way, I would not even consider a GO ML of 5. That's just silly to my mind. On the other hand reducing the printed Broken ML by something might be an alternative. Say by 2 pre-Pusan, 1 during Pusan and nothing post-Pusan. So a broken 666 would have a ML of 6, 7 and 8 respectively. That way they don't initially break any quicker but once broken they tend to keep fleeing.
That the USA troops were under performing is not surprising. The early shipments where the sweepings of understrength occupation units with little artillery and just a few light tanks. Cap it with Baz that underperformed, likely due to less than optimal storage and a particularly aggressive NK doctrine, I think they did as well as could be expected under the circumstances. Their WW2 equivalents had to 2 years to ponder war and become psychologically prepared and with the exception of the Philippines had many, many months to years to train during wartime and all that entails.
I have not studied the KW to any significant degree so the above is just my tentative opinion, so feel free to disagree, I'm always open to new or different views.
I tend to agree that USA performance was quite bad in the early days. While an abysmal ERL would be one way, I would not even consider a GO ML of 5. That's just silly to my mind. On the other hand reducing the printed Broken ML by something might be an alternative. Say by 2 pre-Pusan, 1 during Pusan and nothing post-Pusan. So a broken 666 would have a ML of 6, 7 and 8 respectively. That way they don't initially break any quicker but once broken they tend to keep fleeing.
That the USA troops were under performing is not surprising. The early shipments where the sweepings of understrength occupation units with little artillery and just a few light tanks. Cap it with Baz that underperformed, likely due to less than optimal storage and a particularly aggressive NK doctrine, I think they did as well as could be expected under the circumstances. Their WW2 equivalents had to 2 years to ponder war and become psychologically prepared and with the exception of the Philippines had many, many months to years to train during wartime and all that entails.
I have not studied the KW to any significant degree so the above is just my tentative opinion, so feel free to disagree, I'm always open to new or different views.
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FMFCB
Member
Nineteen Kilo
Senior Member
While the performance of Task Force Smith was miserable, a "5" morale is unworkable in the game. There is an extreme probability drop off of passing an NMC between 6 morale and 5 morale - 42% for the former and 28% for the latter. Anything less than a 6 morale for any country in WWII, or Korea, just won't work in ASL.
Additionally Task Force Smith is not representational of ALL US Army units in 1950. The Wolfhounds (27th Regiment) on the east side of the peninsula were treated almost like a fire brigade by the 25th ID - even standing up to T34 assaults.
19K
PS. I can't believe its been nearly a year since I pre-ordered this game. Time seems to be accelerating as I grow older.
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Yuri0352
Elder Member
And here we go again...
Yet another thread derailed by the 'US Army Morale Sucks Theory', this time including the opinion that in ASL terms, the U.S. Army Morale should be lowered beneath even that of the 1940 French army.
Am i the only one who recognizes the irony of using the term 'bug out' to describe the withdrawal maneuvers and retreats of the U.S. Army during the Korean War? I haven't heard that term used since the M*A*S*H TV series was cancelled.
If i am understanding your definition of 'bugging out' in the face of 'strong attack', it would appear that by your definition the actions of the USMC and U.S. Army units during the Chosin Reservoir fighting should be considered examples of a cataclysmic defeat. Somebody better let Chas know about this so he can print up a sheet of 6-6-5 USMC counters for inclusion in the KWASL module.
Felix Sulla
Recruit
FYI, the Chosin Reservoir was a cataclysmic defeat. However, the 'heroic' nature of the Marine Corp in that action is justification for them having a morale of '8' in a Korean module and not the opposite.
After all, no one says that British Paratroopers should be represented by a '5' because they suffered a similarly catastrophic defeat at Arnhem -in fact, everyone says the opposite. The same principle obviously applies to the 'hard core, marine corp'.
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Yuri0352
Elder Member
No argument here...the massive casualties sustained by the Chinese army during their failed attempt to annihilate the U.S. forces at the Chosin Reservoir certainly qualifies as an example of a cataclysmic defeat.
The idea that US morale should be lower is ludicrous. But, the Chosin was a strategic defeat for the United Nations forces; any battle that ends in the largest seaborne evacuation in the US Navy history cannot in any way be considered a victory. The Russians lost the casualty count all the way to Berlin, so casualties inflicted count for nothing in the end.
klasmalmstrom
Forum Guru
Unless of course the Victory Conditions say "CVP".
GeorgeBates
Elder Member
As far as the US Army performance at the Chosin Reservoir goes, I would say that the morale of Task Force Faith (RCT-31) remained high until casualties (including frostbite cases), low ammunition. immobilization and loss of air cover wore it down to the point where it was overrun. It held off two full Chinese divisions for four full days.
Felix Sulla
Recruit
And by your calculus the VietCong/NVA also lost the Vietman War.
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Jazz
Inactive
Depends on the objective of the operation now don't it?
I'm thinking the objective was to push the UN forces back from the Yalu and re-establish communist control of the original North Korean state, which was achieved.
Casualties have different levels of importance in different situations and cultures.
Yuri0352
Elder Member
I hope that you didn't sustain any injuries while leaping to that conclusion.
Yuri0352
Elder Member
Boy, ain't that the truth...especially as stated in your last sentence. I have no doubt that the definition of a 'cataclysmic defeat' has different interpretations in different cultures or military establishments.
In my opinion, the example of the Chosin Reservoir fighting could be compared in some respects to the Dunkirk evacuation. In both cases, a large force escaped from near annihilation, although in each example, it would be quite a stretch to proclaim such an evacuation/withdrawal as a victory for the British/French/US. Likewise (again, in my opinion) I believe that in both examples, the Chinese/German's failure to annihilate or force the surrender of their adversaries was a clear failure in many respects.
Perhaps it all boils down to national perspective when proclaiming or commemorating victory or defeat. I would be very surprised to see the Chosin battle regarded by the Chinese people as anything other than a victory. I know for a fact that the Chosin battle is regarded by the Marine Corps as a gallant feat of arms, though not necessarily a victory, and certainly not as a defeat. Perhaps the British have a similar opinion as to the 'Miracle of Dunkirk '.
* The evacuation of Dunkirk was a successful operation. The Battle of France was a catastrophic defeat for the allies.
* The withdraw of Army Group B from the Caucuses was a successful operation. Operation Blue was a catastrophic defeat for the Axis.
* The evacuation of the remnants of the Japanese army during operation Ke was successful. The Guadalcanal campaign was a catastrophic defeat for the Axis.
It doesn't really depend on which side you look at it from, only how narrowly you want to define the action.
Justiciar
Elder Member
It was in fact much, much more than a victory. It helped seal the deal that the USMC would remain in existence to this day.
How so you ask?
Given the interwar period 1946-1950, the USMC was on the chopping block on so many levels it could well have been abolished given the budget of the time. I recommend "Forgotten Warriors" by T.X. Hammes.
Had the Chinese actually defeated and wiped out the 1st Marine Division. I am dead certain no mater what happened in the war. The US Army and the USAF...and in the end even the Navy 'chiefs' would have said to Congress...."take them off the rolls and give us their money and manpower and we can do their job." The Army would have said "we know how to land troops from the shore witness our operations at Normandy, in the Philippines etc", the USAF would have said "with a nuke who needs troops on the ground anyways, we can make more bombers"...and the Navy would have said "if we don't need ships to move them and their gear, then that is another aircraft carrier, air wing, submarines for the US."
No Chosin was an epic victory for the Corps from top to bottom.
mooreshawnm
Member
^ as a Army vet I have to admit that got me to snicker. That being said Great Uncle was a marine there fighting his way out while his brother (my grandfather) was on a DD just off shore. Both pacific theater vets. Can not wait until this mod is out.
FMFCB
Member
Gunner Scott
Forum Guru
Justiciar
Elder Member
I don't recall Chosin being posted. As JRK noted, Scott did load a Seoul scenario.