ASL: difficult to learn to play, easy to learn how to play well, and dying out

[Jumbo]

And many Computer games have tried to mimic the intensity of ASL and failed. If there was one, we would be playing it instead.

Remember when the Combat Mission guy, Steve Grammont, said Combat Mission was going to be more than ASL?
Hey, Grammont, still waiting for you to release "Combat Mission - The Pacific"! Oops, my bad, Grammont; too much to fix those distorted vehicle shapes in your basic games, right?
Hey, Grammont, your vehicle shapes look like something out of a Salvatore Dali painting. You could fix dat, maybe.
So much for awl dat jaw jakkin, gum flappin & bullkrapping about cardboard being played out...
Haw Haw - fail (IMHO).

I have purchased Eickert's first ed "Storms of Steel" and 2nd ed. "Awakening the Bear".
Fun games, but, I went on to buy the computer version of "AtB".
IMHO, a massive fail, and waste of my money.
Maybe Eickert can put some energy into getting his system straight, so that he does not have to update/revise it every year?
Or, maybe Eickert is taking a page out of Critical Hit's playbook?

Meanwhile, ASL is still King.

Hate on, haterz...

 

[Justiciar]

.....
Meanwhile, ASL is still King....

True dat.

 

[Rock SgtDan]

It’s fair to say ‘Enemy at the Gates’ was a inspiration for Hill.
That video was talking about the ‘short legs’ of new games while ASL clearly has ‘long legs’ of an old game. I fail to see the comparison. ASL was one of the last great wargame/boardgames, innovating and pushing the limits, before mainstream computers.

ASL is only an old game to old gamers. New gamers evaluate it from a different perspective.

 

[olli]

Please explain why ASL is dying out.
Thank you.

Dan appears here from time to time to stir the pot and try to get us upset, I guess the water is to high for the troll to stay under his bridge!

 

[M.Koch]

Damn, i miss the popcorn emoji.

Whatever. Hello mommy ?‍

 

[ineation]

And many Computer games have tried to mimic the intensity of ASL and failed. If there was one, we would be playing it instead.

I am quite sure that if there was a huge market for such a game, and therefore budget and resources similar to those of "Hit videogames", it would now be possible to develop an awesome Video ASL game with a powerful IA. Or it would take a multi millionaire ASL player to sponsor the development ;-)

 

[BattleSchool]

The problem with AI is that it's artificial. It's certainly not "human" intelligence. Granted a computer has beaten the best Go player in the world. But how do you get an AI to successfully mimic, let alone anticipate, the emotional and/or irrational responses of a human player in ASL?

Sure a good AI can crunch numbers faster than any human, and therefore make the best moves possible based on math. But there's no guarantee that such a move will survive the vagaries of chance, let alone the reaction of its human opponent.

Even if an AI were able to account for all of these variables, it wouldn't be that interesting to play, expect perhaps as an aid for learning the mechanics of ASL. Nothing beats playing (and besting) a human player. Maybe this explains the increasing migration back to board games and face-to-face social interaction.

 

[Jumbo]

Dan appears here from time to time to stir the pot and try to get us upset, I guess the water is to high for the troll to stay under his bridge!

Good point.

But, IMHO, all he accomplishes, ultimately, is to make himself (whoever he is - !!!) appear foolish, for never can he back up his words.

ASL is dying... Haw, Haw.

Thanks for the entertainment, though.

Nice try, Unsat Cadet Pebbles.

 

[ASLurker]

"It is very difficult to learn to play Advanced Squad Leader, easy to learn how to play it well. (If you can get through HOW to undertake every possible action, the strategies and tactics are pretty simple"

That is a complete joke of a statement, by someone who has obviously no idea how ASL is played well.

The mechanics of the ASL system ARE elegantly simple to understand: Fire, movement, fire back, advance, close combat. That's how most WW2 combat takes place, various impulses of those phases.

It's the subtleties of all the situations and the ruleset encompassing the system that complicates things. I don't think he was every implying that the overall game is "pretty simple". It's obviously not. But the concept of the phases are very easy to grasp. Hell, I can show my wife some old WW2 footage and explain the phases of the system to her and she'd easily grasp it...before she fell asleep. ?

 

[Jacometti]

The mechanics of the ASL system ARE elegantly simple to understand: Fire, movement, fire back, advance, close combat. That's how most WW2 combat takes place, various impulses of those phases.

It's the subtleties of all the situations and the ruleset encompassing the system that complicates things. I don't think he was every implying that the overall game is "pretty simple". It's obviously not. But the concept of the phases are very easy to grasp. Hell, I can show my wife some old WW2 footage and explain the phases of the system to her and she'd easily grasp it...before she fell asleep. ?

He stated directly that, once you know the rules, it is easy to play the game "well".

I can only interpret that to mean "competitively".

And that is blatantly untrue. It is very difficult to play ASL well competitively and it takes many years of playing, after learning the game, to play it well (ie compete for tournament championships).

 

[ASLurker]

He stated directly that, once you know the rules, it is easy to play the game "well".

I can only interpret that to mean "competitively".

And that is blatantly untrue. It is very difficult to play ASL well competitively and it takes many years of playing, after learning the game, to play it well (ie compete for tournament championships).

If your interpretation is right, you are correct. But, how can you claim something is "blatantly untrue" if it's open to interpretation?

Anyway, most of us don't compete in tournament championships anyway. Most of us spend more time trimming counters than playing (kind of joking, but not). To casually play the game (ie to have fun) all you need is the SK ruleset to get going, and that's only 20something pages of rules.

I'm trying not to be an ASL snob. Most people play the game to have fun, and you can make it as complex (or not) as you need or desire.

 

[Fort]

That guy couldn't find a nail on the fastener row of a hardware store in the middle of a nail factory.
It is obvious he has never played a single game of ASL with anyone who knows how to play.

 

[Khill]

ASL is the greatest game devised by man. to believe otherwise is heresy. all heretics should be burned on a pyre of counter clippings: especially trolls

 

['Ol Fezziwig]

And many Computer games have tried to mimic the intensity of ASL and failed. If there was one, we would be playing it instead.

Red Orchestra 2/Rising Sun.

 

[Old Noob]

Advanced Squad Leader is easy to understand, BUT difficult to master. I don't play that much, but the more experienced opponents tell me
that they are still learning.

 

[boylermaker]

He stated directly that, once you know the rules, it is easy to play the game "well".

Guys, guys, guys! This statement could very well be true. How would we know if it weren't? Nobody's ever actually learned the rules.

 

[BattleSchool]

Guys, guys, guys! This statement could very well be true. How would we know if it weren't? Nobody's ever actually learned the rules.

Ouch! But fair point.

Of course, there's that apocryphal fella who's studied the rules backwards, and who can cite rule references off the top of his head. But he can't play fer shit!

1. Troy W's assertion that ASL tactics and "strategies" are pretty simple is disingenuous. Most games have a limited number of "strategies," most of which can be grasped after a dozen or so playings. ASL tactics are arguably more numerous than those in any other war-game. The interplay of the rule set, terrain, environmental conditions, opposing forces, and chance are such that there are literally hundreds of ways to get the job done (or not) in ASL.

2. IMO, Troy's most pointed (and dismissive) claim is that ASL is "about the hobby of fussing with the rule set."

Those playing SL and its sequels today are probably guilty of this to some degree. Like church leaders faced with conflicting gospels, they must come to some agreement on what should be canonical and what should be discarded.

IMO, proponents of ASL are less afflicted. We have one official rule set that virtually every player abides by. Moreover, most serious disagreements are resolved by way of official Q&A and errata. Furthermore, disagreements over rules have more to do with (mis)interpretation of how a rule is meant to be played than a desire to fiddle with or change a rule. Granted, there are a few rules (foxholes, panji, snipers, and so forth) that a relative handful of players would like to see amended. But for the most part players devote their time to playing ASL (and clipping counters, etc.).

If ASL were found guilty of fussing over anything it would be organizing their ASL kit.

 

[Justiciar]

Guys, guys, guys! This statement could very well be true. How would we know if it weren't? Nobody's ever actually learned the rules.

It is not about "learning the rules"...it is about the journey and people and places we have been as a result of this game.

Have a watch of this, and just transpose everything to ASL...rules, counter clipping or not, plano or racco etc etc.

https://www.ted.com/talks/adam_savage_my_obsession_with_objects_and_the_stories_they_tell?language=en

 

[wrongway149]

Advanced Squad Leader is easy to understand, BUT difficult to master. I don't play that much, but the more experienced opponents tell me
that they are still learning.

ASL is a journey-- not a destination.

 

[Justiciar]

That is the point of the video I posted above...and my point in #38.