ASL: difficult to learn to play, easy to learn how to play well, and dying out

[Rock SgtDan]

This guy really hits it on the head.

Academy Games Uwe Eickert, current and future state of the gaming industry | Wargames

Dan Pancaldi had Uwe Eickert of Acadamy Games on his youtube channel for an in-depth detailed look at the current and future state of the game publishing business. Some really good information about how and why things are down. Why there is going to be a consolidation and mergers

boardgamegeek.com

by Troy W
There are two definitions of "heavy," which is another term for cognitive difficulty; that is usually a function of complexity.

It is easy to learn to play Splotter's Indonesia, very difficult to learn how to play it well.

It is very difficult to learn to play Advanced Squad Leader, easy to learn how to play it well. (If you can get through HOW to undertake every possible action, the strategies and tactics are pretty simple, and more importantly, they are often equally valuable to all players, a thing that is rare in a Euro even if it doesn't have 'variable player powers.' A computer version, say that autocalculated every roll for you when you moused over a target, would be easy enough for a child to play, and the child would get really good fast.)

But the main issue is that cultural productions, including games, tend to get more accessible as time goes on. Note that this does not mean easier: it means more available to more people. (Short answer is technology, including falling production and materials costs, and the incredible boost of mature advertising.) As such, you'll start to see Darwinian selection for things that are more learnable--and an accompanying pressure for more novelty, which is often about emergent complexity. The result is more Euros, or games that are learnable but deeply challenging.

Games like ASL (or Magic Realm, an even better example) are about the hobby of fussing with the rule set, something that most grognards have been doing for so long that they've internalized it, like a fish internalizes being in a river. But nobody else wants to start, especially since this is what machines are for.

 

[dur]

I am not sure that I agree with this post, for two main reasons:

1. The comparison being made is between eurogames, which necessarily involve a large level of abstraction, and ASL, which is a simulation. Eurogames, through abstraction, can cover a lot of ground geographically, mechanically, and substantively. A game like Viticulture abstractly represents the running of an entire vineyard and the myriad activities that make up such an enterprise. You need to manage workers, plant grapes, harvest, store, and produce your product, and obtain and fulfill orders. That's a lot of ground to cover. ASL, on the other hand simulates, in a very detailed way, a rather short and simple situation. There are plenty of factors involved in WW2 combat, as we all know since we play this game, but at the end of the day the decisionmaking process is very simple and constrained by reality: do I move or do I shoot?

This simplicity does not mean that it is simple to learn how to play ASL well. Regardless of your ability to learn and master the rules. there are some people who are simply better tacticians than others. Many players have been playing for years (such as myself) and still struggle to mount an effective attack. The dearth of strategic ASL fanzine articles compared to rules analysis or how-to resources speaks to the subtle difficulty of mastering the few tactical options available to someone. While there may be a few tricks or schools of thought that can provide general direction in a given circumstance, even within the limited constraints of ASL you'll encounter many unique tactical situations and one is always going to need to be able to think on his feet.

2. ASL might be much easier to play if you don't have to remember the rules, but that doesn't mean that it has an inherent design issue. The game was published in '85 before the proliferation of the personal computer, and is based on a system designed in '77. The ability to technologically simulate a game like ASL simply wasn't available for the mass market (or even a niche market like wargaming). It's a shame that we have allowed ourselves to offload this aspect of gaming onto the CPU. Contrary to the posters point, it isn't about fussing about a rules system, but understanding and mastering a complex challenge that provides a very rewarding gameplay experience.

Besides, it isn't even that difficult to grasp the basics of ASL when an established player is showing you the ropes. The main barriers to more people learning to play ASL are laziness, a lack of interest in the subject matter, and the relative difficulty of obtaining the game.

I'm an outlier in the ASL community because I'm 30, but I can say that there is still definitely interest in wargames. It's just a matter of connecting the people who would be interested in them to the knowledge of their existence.

 

[buser333]

I am not sure that I agree with this post, for two main reasons:

1. The comparison being made is between eurogames, which necessarily involve a large level of abstraction, and ASL, which is a simulation. Eurogames, through abstraction, can cover a lot of ground geographically, mechanically, and substantively. A game like Viticulture abstractly represents the running of an entire vineyard and the myriad activities that make up such an enterprise. You need to manage workers, plant grapes, harvest, store, and produce your product, and obtain and fulfill orders. That's a lot of ground to cover. ASL, on the other hand simulates, in a very detailed way, a rather short and simple situation. There are plenty of factors involved in WW2 combat, as we all know since we play this game, but at the end of the day the decisionmaking process is very simple and constrained by reality: do I move or do I shoot?

This simplicity does not mean that it is simple to learn how to play ASL well. Regardless of your ability to learn and master the rules. there are some people who are simply better tacticians than others. Many players have been playing for years (such as myself) and still struggle to mount an effective attack. The dearth of strategic ASL fanzine articles compared to rules analysis or how-to resources speaks to the subtle difficulty of mastering the few tactical options available to someone. While there may be a few tricks or schools of thought that can provide general direction in a given circumstance, even within the limited constraints of ASL you'll encounter many unique tactical situations and one is always going to need to be able to think on his feet.

2. ASL might be much easier to play if you don't have to remember the rules, but that doesn't mean that it has an inherent design issue. The game was published in '85 before the proliferation of the personal computer, and is based on a system designed in '77. The ability to technologically simulate a game like ASL simply wasn't available for the mass market (or even a niche market like wargaming). It's a shame that we have allowed ourselves to offload this aspect of gaming onto the CPU. Contrary to the posters point, it isn't about fussing about a rules system, but understanding and mastering a complex challenge that provides a very rewarding gameplay experience.

Besides, it isn't even that difficult to grasp the basics of ASL when an established player is showing you the ropes. The main barriers to more people learning to play ASL are laziness, a lack of interest in the subject matter, and the relative difficulty of obtaining the game.

I'm an outlier in the ASL community because I'm 30, but I can say that there is still definitely interest in wargames. It's just a matter of connecting the people who would be interested in them to the knowledge of their existence.

Nice response. Even though I am not really a fan, ASLSK does show that the bare bones of ASL are relatively simple based on its 30-some page rulebook. The rest of the umpteen dozens of pages is merely all the intricacies. Of course these intricacies is what, to me, makes the game so great. 6.5 years after starting to play seriously, I am still constantly looking up rules and learning as I go. I do think that the learning curve of ASL is relatively asymptotic. I'm not sure I'm a whole lot better now than I was a year into playing. I think a person either gets it or they don't.

Not sure how far you are from Columbus, but I know they have get togethers every month I believe. The guy that runs it (Scott) is a great guy. If you are interested I can give you his contact info. Otherwise VASL is still, I believe, the best way to meet a great group of people who play.

 

[dur]

Not sure how far you are from Columbus, but I know they have get togethers every month I believe. The guy that runs it (Scott) is a great guy. If you are interested I can give you his contact info. Otherwise VASL is still, I believe, the best way to meet a great group of people who play.

Haha, Scott and I co-founded CAASL (Columbus Area Advanced Squad Leader)! He is indeed an great opponent and an even greater gentleman. This is the first time I've had someone reach out to me about my own club, so I would say we've seen some success.

 

[Sparky]

thanks for posting Dan. I watched that video and surprisingly considering its length it held my attention and was quite interesting regardling the state of the boardgaming industry. Never really considered it was in such heady oversaturated times. Sort of blows holes in the notions that todays youth are glued to computer screens and games and aren't interested playing or interested in historical or war board games. Especially found his thoughts on Hasbro interesting.

 

[Jacometti]

"It is very difficult to learn to play Advanced Squad Leader, easy to learn how to play it well. (If you can get through HOW to undertake every possible action, the strategies and tactics are pretty simple"

That is a complete joke of a statement, by someone who has obviously no idea how ASL is played well.

 

[bendizoid]

"It is very difficult to learn to play Advanced Squad Leader, easy to learn how to play it well. (If you can get through HOW to undertake every possible action, the strategies and tactics are pretty simple"

That is a complete joke of a statement, by someone who has obviously no idea how ASL is played well.

Yes, I’d say it’s about as hard and time consuming as learning to play guitar with excellence. Didn’t say it wasn’t fun.

 

[Rock SgtDan]

I would not say that ASL is a simulation. It's how John Hill imagined a war movie. Even the strength factors arise from his using counters from Russian Campaign (IIRC) in his prototype.

 

[bendizoid]

I would not say that ASL is a simulation. It's how John Hill imagined a war movie. Even the strength factors arise from his using counters from Russian Campaign (IIRC) in his prototype.

It’s fair to say ‘Enemy at the Gates’ was a inspiration for Hill.
That video was talking about the ‘short legs’ of new games while ASL clearly has ‘long legs’ of an old game. I fail to see the comparison. ASL was one of the last great wargame/boardgames, innovating and pushing the limits, before mainstream computers.

 

[Hutch]

And many Computer games have tried to mimic the intensity of ASL and failed. If there was one, we would be playing it instead.

 

[zgrose]

And many Computer games have tried to mimic the intensity of ASL and failed. If there was one, we would be playing it instead.

Too many ASLers want to be chart masters instead of tactical leaders, that’s why a lot of ASLers don’t play the excellent WW2 tactical games. YMMV

 

[Sparafucil3]

Too many ASLers want to be chart masters instead of tactical leaders, that’s why a lot of ASLers don’t play the excellent WW2 tactical games. YMMV

Too many games want to hide the tables so the AI can stand a chance. Once sorted, the AI can't respond like a real human and can be beaten by script. Not to mention that an AI is not a real social experience. -- jim

 

[BattleSchool]

Too many ASLers want to be chart masters instead of tactical leaders, that’s why a lot of ASLers don’t play the excellent WW2 tactical games. YMMV

Can you provide a couple of examples of these?

 

[JimWhite]

...excellent WW2 tactical games. YMMV

Can you provide a couple of examples of these?

I'd be interested in checking some of these out too.

 

[Jumbo]

ASL is dying out?

OH NOES!!!

 

[Cult.44]

ASL is dying out?

OH NOES!!!

It's been dying since I joined the hobby in 2012. I imagine it will continue to be dying after I'm dead.

 

[Jumbo]

This guy really hits it on the head.

Academy Games Uwe Eickert, current and future state of the gaming industry | Wargames

Dan Pancaldi had Uwe Eickert of Acadamy Games on his youtube channel for an in-depth detailed look at the current and future state of the game publishing business. Some really good information about how and why things are down. Why there is going to be a consolidation and mergers

boardgamegeek.com

by Troy W
There are two definitions of "heavy," which is another term for cognitive difficulty; that is usually a function of complexity.

It is easy to learn to play Splotter's Indonesia, very difficult to learn how to play it well.

It is very difficult to learn to play Advanced Squad Leader, easy to learn how to play it well. (If you can get through HOW to undertake every possible action, the strategies and tactics are pretty simple, and more importantly, they are often equally valuable to all players, a thing that is rare in a Euro even if it doesn't have 'variable player powers.' A computer version, say that autocalculated every roll for you when you moused over a target, would be easy enough for a child to play, and the child would get really good fast.)

But the main issue is that cultural productions, including games, tend to get more accessible as time goes on. Note that this does not mean easier: it means more available to more people. (Short answer is technology, including falling production and materials costs, and the incredible boost of mature advertising.) As such, you'll start to see Darwinian selection for things that are more learnable--and an accompanying pressure for more novelty, which is often about emergent complexity. The result is more Euros, or games that are learnable but deeply challenging.

Games like ASL (or Magic Realm, an even better example) are about the hobby of fussing with the rule set, something that most grognards have been doing for so long that they've internalized it, like a fish internalizes being in a river. But nobody else wants to start, especially since this is what machines are for.

Please explain why ASL is dying out.
Thank you.

 

[Jumbo]

"It is very difficult to learn to play Advanced Squad Leader, easy to learn how to play it well. (If you can get through HOW to undertake every possible action, the strategies and tactics are pretty simple"

That is a complete joke of a statement, by someone who has obviously no idea how ASL is played well.

Touchdown.

 

[Cult.44]

It does seem that ASL has a way of breeding an aggressive sort of resentment where people are inspired to pooh-pooh it or otherwise put it down (along with the players of the game).

 

[Jazz]

It does seem that ASL has a way of breeding an aggressive sort of resentment where people are inspired to pooh-pooh it or otherwise put it down (along with the players of the game).

Oh! Say it ain’t so!