ASL and the StG-44

Paul M. Weir

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An easy way to handle a few armed men amongst a throng of weaponless wretches is to ignore the wretches and only include armed units. While it's not literally true that the only ones present were the armed troops, if the weaponless ones just died by dozen without any material impact, design for effect.

JR
I suppose one could always SSR an attack factor to be used in CC only as well (say a mix of 447s & 347s with the 347s having only the capability to engage in CC attacks). Interesting, never really thought much about it before now.
I would not ignore the unarmed ones, if you are not careful with a bamboo pole you can take an eye out, didn't your parents teach you anything :mad:?
The effectively weaponless still absorb bullets and distract from the armed, starving or not they still have momentum ... and teeth and fingers! It's not going to be a case of "over there, that one's got a rifle, ignore the toothpicks." So I have to agree with Eagle4ty's approach or some variation thereof.

My version is to reduce Japanese FP to 1 (some weapons/ammo left) or half for (I)IFT combat, using their printed FP in CC but give them no -2 HtH bonus. Even normal HtH CC will involve some shooting and grenades whilst closing in for knife/bayonet work and they are physically weakened. If their target is US then no cowering for US fire (like the British).
 
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von Marwitz

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To simulate German late-war non-elite squads with the Stg-44, use the 4-4-7 counters with a very healthy supply of 3-8 LMGs.
That man talks reason.

An alternative would be something like 70% 447s and 30% 548s with normal LMG supply. Along with inherent PF and ATMM at the time, this would pretty well represent that a VG Divison might be dangerous yet brittle in close quarters but not especially intent of taking it towards the enemy (due to the shorter range). The rather low ELR typical at late war will see to it that such type of unit will tend to 'fall back'. The 548s would represent the sprinkling of surviving / inserted veterans around which the VG Divisions were formed.

von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

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A Platoon = 3 squads, a Company has 3 platoons, say 10 squad = 100 Infantry (ignoring MTR, MG crew etc). A battalion has 3 Inf Co or 300 Inf. A late war German Inf Div had about 7 Battalions (3 Inf Regt each 2 Inf Battalions and a Fusilier Battalion, a combined Recon and shock unit) for 2100 inf. Round that up to 2.5k who might be issued StG. I know that sounds ridiculously low for a 10+k division but MG gunners, artillery men, supply, medical, etc people only need pistols, rifles and the odd SMG. So 650k StG is the equivalent of 260 Inf Divs and 424k a mere 170 Inf Divs! So even 424k can go a long, long way. Until I did the math I had not realised the magnitude.
Probably these computations would have been off the mark.

I could not quickly find telling numbers for a late war VG Division, but here's some numbers on weaponry of an Infanterie Division of 1940 (9. Infanterie Division as of 15.04.1940):

518 Officers
102 Administrative Staff
2573 NCOs
13667 Ranks

16860 Total

Small arms equipment for these were:

3681 Pistols
12609 Rifles
312 MPs
90 ATRs
425 LMG
110 HMG

So roughly there was a rifle for 3 of 4 men as opposed to 1 out of 4 which you would estimate (2500 rifles for a 10k division).

Of course, you are looking at a late war division. And you are looking at StG44. But the StG was at least intended as the standard weapon for infantry. So eventually, I believe the thought of equipping 170 Infantry Divisions with 424k StG44 cannot be upheld.

von Marwitz
 

Michael Dorosh

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You don't really need to go into late war for the Japanese. When General MacArthur made his big leap to Hollandia much of Gen Adachi's 18th Army was cut off east of there and made a horrendous march thru the jungles of northern New Guinea to the Hollandia area. Many of the troops were malnourished and almost weaponless, discarding their weapons on the march. Arriving along the Driniumor River several units launched fanatic attacks against the Americans armed with little more than sharpened bamboo sticks or weapons without ammo. Approximately 20,000 Japanese troops launched repeated almost suicidal attacks against the American lines, so fierce indeed were their assaults for example that their 1st Battalion 78th Infantry was reduced from an attack strength of approximately 400 to 30 men in only a few minutes. My father's battery of 105's was hit so hard that they were firing over open sights at charging enemy troops 400-200 yards away for about 2 days on going. I remember him saying that after the battle they found almost no weapons among the dead. A BAR gunner from the supporting Company E 128th Inf Regt fired over 26 magazines of ammo in less than 15 minutes during the initial assault on their position, yet many of the assaulting Japanese simply ran past him, having no way to effectively engage him from a distance. Likewise the 4th Company 237th Inf Regt (IJA) about 120-200 strong but nearly weaponless would try to cross a 30-40 yd wide stream against the flank of Company F 128th Infantry and not a single Japanese soldier stepped foot on the opposite bank, they were completely wiped out in less than 5 minutes. These are only a few of examples, but the PTO is replete with instances of such actions. One need only to read of actions by the Japanese on Guadalcanal, Bougainville or a plethora of other locations in the South/Southwest Pacific to find examples of almost weaponless Japanese forces conducting such attacks-to say nothing of the huge Banzai attack on Saipan at the end of that operation.
Great info! Thanks for sharing it. I wonder if you couldn't SSR unarmed (prisoner) counters to act as combatants, perhaps have a higher CC value or something.
 

Barking Monkey

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Although obliquely referenced in the Japanese discussion, it still surprises me that most of the discussion in this thread focuses on the weaponry for justifying or questioning the firepower (and range) values. In my (very) inexpert opinion logistics pretty well supports most of the firepower and range values in the game. An SG44 is arguably no better (maybe worse) than a KAR98 if you only have 10 bullets at the start of a firefight. Going right back to SL I always assumed the vigorous 6FP of the US squads was based on their generally having lots more bullets to throw downrange than their German counterparts. You frequently seem to run across 1st hand German soldiers accounts in which they are amazed at the way GI's would hose away at them with a disregard for ammo that the German soldiers could only envy (and yet still not run out.)

In a similar vein I figured the difference in the '4' range of the Soviet 1st liners was lower than the '6' range of the Germans due to relative ammo availability - if you're short on bullets you're going to be less likely to (or have fewer guys in your squad willing to) issue fire at a distant target rather than wait for them (or their buddies) to get a little closer. It's not like the Mosin Nagant was only 2/3 as accurate as a Mauser...

Between logistics, willingness/ability of individuals to issue effective fire, and weaponry, I suspect weaponry is the least important factor in determining squad values.
 

Justiciar

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....
Between logistics, willingness/ability of individuals to issue effective fire, and weaponry, I suspect weaponry is the least important factor in determining squad values.
I see you aim point.

Still, not sure you can throw 'weaponry' under the bus though...in the sense of 'least' important as is the crux of your case. B/c wrapped/allied/linked to 'weaponry' is: a) CC value/ratio vs other infantry/Cav, b) is range, being able to fire to 12 hexes vs. 8 or maybe only 4 matters. Tangent: weaponry = spray fire or not. Tangent: weaponry is how a multi hex FG FP scales...2x 4 = 8 not bad. 2x 6 = 12...I should hurt you on that table.
 

daniel zucker

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How many of you have looked at footnote #2 in chapter A? Every-time these discussions come up that's the first thing I think of. I think that this footnote could also be an explanation for the FP value.
 

Alan Hume

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Back when Don Greenwood designed SL he used blue 4-6-7 counters and some 4-4-7 and 6-6-6 counters as a base to design the game. It was not much more scientific then that back in ‘76. I have the article some place...
John Hill, Don Greenwood was the developer
 

Barking Monkey

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I see you aim point.

Still, not sure you can throw 'weaponry' under the bus though...in the sense of 'least' important as is the crux of your case. B/c wrapped/allied/linked to 'weaponry' is: a) CC value/ratio vs other infantry/Cav, b) is range, being able to fire to 12 hexes vs. 8 or maybe only 4 matters. Tangent: weaponry = spray fire or not. Tangent: weaponry is how a multi hex FG FP scales...2x 4 = 8 not bad. 2x 6 = 12...I should hurt you on that table.
I think both of your major points are addressed by logistics better than weaponry:
- CC in ASL is largely point blank engagement - the squad with lots more grenades is going to have an advantage over a squad with few.
- Range, as I mentioned is also largely addressed by logistics. The effective range of an Enfield is quite a bit longer than 200 meters (or even 400 if you want to take 'long' range in the game as representing effective range) but that doesn't mean the range for UK squads in the game is "wrong". If I've got 3 extra magazines for my rifle I'm more likely to take a potshot at that target a couple football fields away than I am if I've only got the bullets in my gun at the moment.
- As far as how firepower scales in firegroup attacks that works out the same whether you argue more guys are firing/squad or more efficient weapons/squad.

I'm not saying weaponry is irrelevant, I'm just saying it's only one factor - and far from the most important one.
 

Robin Reeve

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A squad's long range would not only include rifles capacities but the squad's inherent LMG.
 

Justiciar

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How many of you have looked at footnote #2 in chapter A? Every-time these discussions come up that's the first thing I think of. I think that this footnote could also be an explanation for the FP value.
{Edit grammar error} Actually, I think that footnote #2 carries the distinct echo, if not the trace element, of SLA Marshall and his "Men Against Fire" theory, which has been addressed by several people up stream (myself and Dorosh and Eagle4ty among others). That is to say Greenwood was referencing Marshall in that note, and as been shown by various scholars since Marshall, Marshall's "method" for arriving at the conclusion he did in that work has some issues with it.
 
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daniel zucker

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{Edit grammar error} Actually, I think that footnote #2 carries the distinct echo, if not the trace element, of SLA Marshall and his "Men Against Fire" theory, which has been addressed by several people up stream (myself and Dorosh and Eagle4ty among others). That is to say Greenwood was referencing Marshall in that note, and as been shown by various scholars since Marshall, Marshall's "method" for arriving at the conclusion he did in that work has some issues with it.
I can understand and appreciate that, BUT ASL is a game and regardless of whether or not it's a now discredited historian or a beyond reproach historian, the essence of that foot-note is the how and why (the nuts and bolts of the game mechanics of range which is tied to firepower and both are effected by the humans that use the weapons). I think it was a explanation; an attempt to clarify some of (what is called) the design for effect.

The game uses a 2 dice system and even with modifiers, the range of out comes is limited. so their has to be a large amount of wiggle room is coming to combat values for weapons and the humans that use them.
HOW EVER if the game used a system that could generate a result of 0 to 99 then the wiggle room could be greatly reduced and more exacting numbers could be used to design for effect.
I know that there a lots of games that use that type of system, but alas, they are NOT ASL.
If all you really want to do is debate what weapons were more effective then maybe this is a reality argument hiding under under a conversation about what weapons should have which FR number
 

Justiciar

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I can understand and appreciate that, BUT ASL is a game and regardless of whether or not it's a now discredited historian or a beyond reproach historian, the essence of that foot-note is the how and why (the nuts and bolts of the game mechanics of range which is tied to firepower and both are effected by the humans that use the weapons). I think it was a explanation; an attempt to clarify some of (what is called) the design for effect.

The game uses a 2 dice system and even with modifiers, the range of out comes is limited. so their has to be a large amount of wiggle room is coming to combat values for weapons and the humans that use them.
HOW EVER if the game used a system that could generate a result of 0 to 99 then the wiggle room could be greatly reduced and more exacting numbers could be used to design for effect.
I know that there a lots of games that use that type of system, but alas, they are NOT ASL.
If all you really want to do is debate what weapons were more effective then maybe this is a reality argument hiding under under a conversation about what weapons should have which FR number
My point was merely an observation about that note, which links it to a time and place. I am not complaining about ASL.
Further to the main point, I was taking the position that weaponry shouldn't be discounted as much as one forumite had seemed to have done in a listing he had of salient factors about the game.
 

Nineteen Kilo

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I would not ignore the unarmed ones, if you are not careful with a bamboo pole you can take an eye out, didn't your parents teach you anything :mad:?
The effectively weaponless still absorb bullets and distract from the armed, starving or not they still have momentum ... and teeth and fingers! It's not going to be a case of "over there, that one's got a rifle, ignore the toothpicks." So I have to agree with Eagle4ty's approach or some variation thereof.

My version is to reduce Japanese FP to 1 (some weapons/ammo left) or half for (I)IFT combat, using their printed FP in CC but give them no -2 HtH bonus. Even normal HtH CC will involve some shooting and grenades whilst closing in for knife/bayonet work and they are physically weakened. If their target is US then no cowering for US fire (like the British).
I would think you could also just start some of them (or all if the occasion calls for it) as half-squads with an SSR that they cannot recombine during the course of the game.
 

Delirium

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I think this debate can only ever be inconclusive. Insofar as ASL is a model of the impact of firepower on morale, there is almost no data against which to test it. How can one possibly know the statistical probabilities concerning the necessary degree of firepower necessary to ‘break’ a German squad in a wooden barn 325 meters away in January 1942? We can’t. No one will ever know. There is no data. All we have are survivor’s accounts, which are inadequate for this purpose. The heart of the system, the IFT is a piece of guesswork, if even.

ASL is a game. No more, no less.

(That said, a Volksgrenadier 5-4-7 sounds right to me :) )
 
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Justiciar

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[QUOTE="Delirium, post: 1944893, member: 21231"...the necessary degree of firepower necessary to ‘break’ a German squad in a wooden barn 325 meters away in January 1942? We can’t. No one will ever know. There is no data. All we have are survivor’s accounts...[/QUOTE]

The answer based on survivors accounts can be extrapolated and tested by modern hexagonal and applied bell curve methods as:
a) 82mm mortar and 20 rounds HE
b) 12.7mm and 400 rounds of AP with every 5th incendiary
c) 13 warm overcoats and ushankhas for a squad and 1x MOL-POL (the Germans are freezing to death we just wait until mother nature does the work for us.)
d) T-34/76 and 9 rounds HE + 250 rounds CMG
e) any of the above.

;)
 

dlazov

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Some highlights (or TLTR)

For starters, one must recognize that Squad Leader, more than most wargames, is a combination of abstractions and compromises. Not every German soldier (or squad) was superior to every American soldier; or every Polish or Italian one, either, for that matter. The game system makes generalizations and then compounds and exaggerates those findings to generate values that give a feel for nationality differences. While admittedly unfair to judge men by their nationality in this way, it is nonetheless a major factor in why the game has so much flavor. Ask yourself if the basic Squad Leader would have been as much fun if all the units had been rated 4-6-7.

Having already accepted this premise in the original Squad Leader game, which gave American units a base morale of 6 (as opposed to the European’s 7) so as to allow them an increased firepower capability, I had to find the single most commonplace trait which would accentuate their differences from those of the Europeans. There were two obvious differences: experience and individuality. The Germans had been tested by nearly three years of combat before G.I.s met them on the battlefield. Every unit had cadre which had seen action, whereas the G.I., who was far less responsive to discipline anyway, was often led by an NCO with no more combat experience than himself. Naturally, as the war progressed, the Americans gained experience and their counterparts continued to be bled white by years of protracted battle. This is reflected in the game by introducing a German Experience Level Rating as ersatz units and Volksgrenadiere began to provide more and more of the opposition.

Amongst others...
 

Robin Reeve

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It is interesting to see that there already were quite hostile players, attacking Don Greenwood in a rather paranoid way, suggesting hidden and ugly motives behind the design choices.
Also, the "reality arguments" did already prove heavily psychological, when some players found "unpatriotic" that American troops could - at least at the beginning of the involvement of the USA in the war - be outclassed by the Germans. As if they never had opened a military history book.
I also liked the future announcement of Up Front and of the developments of SL - the latter being quite different from what ASL would be (but opening the system to the DTO and PTO finally occurred, of course, as the addition of the not yet covered nationalities).
 
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