ASL and the StG-44

holdit

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When looking at the German infantry counters 4-6-8, 4-6-7 and 4-4-7, I was surprised not to see some effect on firepower from the availability of the StG-44, e.g. a 5-4-7 or 5-3-7 squad. If not firepower, then maybe assault fire capability. The 4-6-7 squad in 1945, however, is no different from its counterpart in 1939. Thinking about it a little more deeply, however, it occurred to me that maybe it is there, but in a design-for-effect way. Perhaps the quality of troops was low enough that the StG-44 actually made poor squads a bit better, or maybe there just weren't enough of them to make a difference.

I'm not saying this is a problem with the game, it's just that I'd be interested to know the design thoughts behind this aspect. Can anyone throw some light on it?

(I'd also be interested to know the weaponry of 8-3-8 squads if anyone can help with that, but my guess is almost exclusively MP-40s and LMGs. And lots of grenades...)
 

dlazov

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Back when Don Greenwood designed SL he used blue 4-6-7 counters and some 4-4-7 and 6-6-6 counters as a base to design the game. It was not much more scientific then that back in ‘76. I have the article some place...
 

thedrake

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Have seen where CH did use 5-4-7 squads for their editions of Pointe du Hoc and Omaha modules, and George Kelln of LCP has done the same with one or two of his modules,where he uses 5-4-7 squads for Volksgrenadiers.
 

klasmalmstrom

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Back when Don Greenwood designed SL he used blue 4-6-7 counters and some 4-4-7 and 6-6-6 counters as a base to design the game. It was not much more scientific then that back in ‘76. I have the article some place...
John Hill. I seem to recall reading that he used the 4-4-7 Russian squad as a "base line". My I could be remembering wrong.
 

footsteps

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Probably apocryphal, but I "remember" the reasoning started from some divisional-level game where the German infantry was 4-6 and the Soviet infantry was 4-4. Add the morale level to each, and call it a day.
 

Robin Reeve

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The 658 SS squads quite clearly include Sturmgewehr assault rifles from 1944 on, when they are granted assault fire capacity.
I would see 548 as representing assault rifle equipped squads too.
How much was that weapon spread among non elite units, I don't know.
 

JRKrejsa

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5-4-8s with lousy ELR works pretty well for Volkgrenadier units.

Better trained and led units can have 5-4-8s with higher ELR.

I think there is a case to be made for late war SS to have a lower ELR, and go from 6-5-8 to 5-4-8 to 4-4-7.

A 5-4-7 Heer squad would be nice, but....
 

Robin Reeve

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The choices of values for squads were approximate, but as those values are different, there was some reason.
Typically, the 6FP of US squads can be related to semi-automatic M1 Garands and one or two BARs.
Assault fire also is related to automatic weapons.
John Hill took the 447 as a base, but did then develop the other squads with differences which portayed in an approximate way their main differences.
 

holdit

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John Hill took the 447 as a base, but did then develop the other squads with differences which portayed in an approximate way their main differences.
This seems to have been a theme with AH. In Napoleon's Battles fire combat (skirmishers + divisional artillery), Bob Coggins took the standard infantry brigade as 2" range with a -3 modifier if the unit type wasn't skirmish-capable, and 4" range with 0 modifier if it was, with other variations possible. For example French light infantry are 4"/0 in the early revolutionary period and in 1813-14, 5"/+1 at other times and even 5"/+2 during the 1805-1807 heyday. Russian line infantry, on the other hand, is 3"-1 because they never really mastered the use of organic skirmishers. So, from a very simple game mechanic comes a wide range of possibilities that are historically relative to each other.
 

Paul M. Weir

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My analysis of FP (below) was to give players a pattern for as of yet unknown squad types. It is not how most of the values were originally decided, yet a fairly reliable pattern can be discerned from existing squad types.

3 basic FP simply because someone is firing, a base threat as it were.
+1 for each inherent LMG in squad
+1 if squad has majority of semi-automatic rifles.
+1 for each 3 SMG in squad.
+1 for particularly Elite, especially if a CC boost is felt to be warranted.
-1 for particularly poorly motivated troops, again especially if a CC degrade is warranted.

So a US 1st line squad that has been assumed to have 'acquired' an extra BAR, fairly common: 3 + 2 (2 BAR) + 1 (semi) = 6. A full strength Soviet SMG squad: 3 + 3 (10 SMG) + 0 (no LMG) = 6. Italian 1st line = 3 + 1 (1 LMG) - 1 (poor troops) = 3. A modicum of common sense and gut feeling also required.

The Germans are the worst to fit in ASL because of upgunning through out the war. They started with a plain 12-13 man rifle squad with 1 LMG. By '41 they started to add a 2nd LMG in Pz and PzGren divisions and by '43 had started to add a 2nd LMG to the better infantry divisions and eventually to all except the real trash. Like many armies the infantry added as many SMG as they could 'acquire' including captured Soviet PPSh-41s. As experience was gained some units formed ad-hoc "Fusilier" units, concentrating available SMG into squads, platoons or companies depending upon the size of the parent formation to act as shock units. This was formalised with the '44 Volksgrenadier units. Typically they would contain 2 (StG+1 LMG) to 1 (rifle+2 LMG) in their mix, the rifle unit to form a fire base for the StG armed units.

I agree that a German 547 could be added to the official base, but I have the LCP and CH (very early) ones.

I regard the SS 658 as being a 2 LMG with 2->4 SMG squad rather than StG armed unit per se, though in very late '44 and '45 StG would have arrived to supplement/replace SMG. For the very best SS units, 468 '39-'41, 548 '42-mid '43, 658 mid '43+. The lower quality SS could rate as 447, 468 or 548 (some) right to war's end.
 

Michael Dorosh

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This again?

http://thetacticalwargamer.blogspot.com/2018/04/the-2-half-squads-interview-with-john_20.html

From my website, the transcript of the 2 Half Squads interview with John Hill

JOHN HILL: So I sort of worked it out. We used to play monst-... Micro Armor and I used little wargame counters for the infantry. That also was (to) sort of make it work, so you started with a standard. (You) said ‘okay, what is the base unit we’re going to work with?’ And then everything is relative to that. What is the, you know, the lowest common denominator? And if you notice in SQUAD LEADER, the…I think the basic unit is a four-four, something like that?

Dave: I’m sorry, what do you mean by that?

JOHN HILL: A combat factor of…

Dave: 4-4-7?

JOHN HILL: Yeah, 4-4-7, something like that?


Dave: Yeah. That does seem like the base, yeah.

JOHN HILL: Yeah. And the reason I started with that, particularly the 4-4-7 was I had tons of VERDUN counters left over that were already labelled as four-fours.

Jeff & Dave: (laughter)

JOHN HILL: So I figured ‘well, I can play with…use these ones for playtesting’ and just throw on a morale number of seven, or whatever.


Jeff: Yeah.

JOHN HILL: It doesn’t matter if this is…because all the numbers are relative, so pick a number as a base. You know, for your common G.I., neither elite, neither green. Neither hero, nor coward. You know…

Jeff: Right.
 

Michael Dorosh

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The Germans are the worst to fit in ASL because of upgunning through out the war. They started with a plain 12-13 man rifle squad with 1 LMG. By '41 they started to add a 2nd LMG in Pz and PzGren divisions and by '43 had started to add a 2nd LMG to the better infantry divisions and eventually to all except the real trash. Like many armies the infantry added as many SMG as they could 'acquire' including captured Soviet PPSh-41s. As experience was gained some units formed ad-hoc "Fusilier" units, concentrating available SMG into squads, platoons or companies depending upon the size of the parent formation to act as shock units. This was formalised with the '44 Volksgrenadier units. Typically they would contain 2 (StG+1 LMG) to 1 (rifle+2 LMG) in their mix, the rifle unit to form a fire base for the StG armed units.
Standard German infantry squad according to Alex Buchner (German Infantry Handbook) was 10 men. By 1944 this was reduced to 9. Standard loadout was an MPi, an lMG and 7 carbines (Kar98k). I don't know where the 12/13 man figure comes from?

https://archive.is/www.bayonetstrength.150m.com

The Germans were unique by their tactical approach. The lMG was the core of firepower. The riflemen were there to support the machine gunner. Everyone else did it the other way around - the CW and US used the MG or BAR to support the riflemen, the Japanese and perhaps the Soviets thought the goal was to get bayonets onto the objective.

The Germans get credit for revolutionizing warfare, but just about everything they did - from the strategic Vernichtungsgedanke (battle of annihilation, accomplished by encirclement) down to their basic infantry tactics came right out of the trenches of the First World War. I guess practicing the same stuff for 25 years, they were bound to be good at it. :)

The introduction of semi-auto rifles (G41, StG 44 etc.) was to make up for the continually declining manpower establishments. Regiments were reduced from three battalions to two, etc.

Quality of manpower also declined. I'm translating the history of the 65th Infantry Division right now. They were formed for coastal defence in 1942. In the summer of 1943, after Stalingrad, they lost large drafts of men to rebuild the Hoch-und-Deutschmeister division, and in their place they received large numbers of conscripts. About 1 in 5 soldiers in the division by late summer 1943 was Polish - these were Silesians who were forced into service (there were four categories of racial makeup, and they were category 3, though deemed still acceptable for service). They went to Italy where they were wiped out in a couple of weeks on the Sangro River. The New Zealand history remarks that their 2nd Division faced the 65th and found them inexperienced, untrained, and in many cases just plain terrified - many surrendered without firing a shot. One company commander found a German machine gunner hiding just yards away from his advance CP, with the means of annihilating the entire command group, but he had no interest in fighting. High rate of fare is no substitute for a stout heart.
 
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Paul M. Weir

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Standard German infantry squad according to Alex Buchner (German Infantry Handbook) was 10 men. By 1944 this was reduced to 9. Standard loadout was an MPi, an lMG and 7 carbines (Kar98k). I don't know where the 12/13 man figure comes from?

https://archive.is/www.bayonetstrength.150m.com
The 12/13 is what I believe they started with in '39. That dropped fairly quickly. Your source (https://archive.is/OMqwv) gives 13 men '39-'40, with 10 men '41-'42. I suspect that for SdKfz 251 borne squads, the drop to 10 was earlier due space limitations but truck and foot infantry could keep 13. That page is an interesting read in that when switching from 3 x 13 man squads (sometime between after Poland and until after France) they went to 4 x 10 man squads. I used to think they had 4 squads/platoon right from the start like many other armies. Learn something new every day!

The 2nd LMG was added in stages. I remember some discussion about Borodino in '41 where it was mentioned that 2nd SS DR squads had only 1 LMG whilst the companion Heer 10th(?) Pz Div squads had 2 LMG. That discussion was centred about the elite status of the SS and whether it was reflected in their equipment allocation. The Motorised Infantry (later Panzer Grenadier) Divs were next to get a 2nd. Once both the Pz and PzGren got theirs the intention was that the better Inf Div were to get a 2nd. How widespread that occurred is another question, but I'm sure at least a few did. Others might have just done with a 2nd LMG for 1 squad in the platoon to act as a firebase while the 1 LMG squads manoeuvred. That practice seems to have been carried on in the VG organisation, a mix of StG heavy and lMG heavy squads. The introduction of StG likely did offset the perceived need for extra lMG.

While we can look at any number of TO&Es and say only 1 LMG and 1 SMG in a squad, reality is more messy. Look at the number of PPSh-41s in German troop hands in photos. I bet once a unit has been in action it will pick up whatever toys it can, whether native or captured. I tend to look at TO&Es as a starting point and with a jaundiced eye. My approach is that if it's AFV or artillery they are likely to lack, but if infantry the thieving bastards have more.

Good point about the different LMG philosophy.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Not sure how accurate the numbers are (it also drops the "d" in "and" so on first glance I thought it said "infantry in armoured divisions" and not "infantry and armoured divisions." There were a bunch of different KStN/TOE/WE organizations and it could also vary by theatre - Canada had two armoured divisions in 1944, one had six battalions of infantry, the other had four...
 

von Marwitz

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The 658 SS squads quite clearly include Sturmgewehr assault rifles from 1944 on, when they are granted assault fire capacity.
I would see 548 as representing assault rifle equipped squads too.
How much was that weapon spread among non elite units, I don't know.
I don't think that the StG was that widespread. Offhand, I would venture to say that around 650,000 were issued [edit: Wiki says only 424,000]. Probably not enough to assume that all 548s / 658s were equipped with that weapon.

A significant number of these went to Volksgrenadier Divisions, i.e. not the unit type reflected in ASL by 548s / 658s. So I would assume that for the latter, a more generous equipment with (inherent) LMG should be assumed rather than with StG 44.

von Marwitz
 
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