ASL and the immorality of war

[Glennbo]

I just heard a series of five quick gunshots, probably a quarter mile away, and soon afterward sirens. This is common in Detroit. Still, I think of someone hurt and dying right now.

I used to have parties a lot and girls would see my ASL stuff, ask about it and say, "You like war?!"

My question to you all is, do you ever take a step back and ask yourselves what it is that you're doing when you push around counters that represent human beings dying? Do you reassure yourself that it's just a game, even though it represents death and destruction? Do you ever feel guilty playing a game like ASL for "fun", considering what it is you're trying to recreate with as much detail as possible? Let's face it, it doesn't get much more detailed than this (SMC wounded by a sniper).

Are people who disdain our hobby (there are a lot) just oversensitive? To this day I still get strange looks when I tell someone at work exactly what ASL is. For me the game is only fun BECAUSE it represents war in it's most intimate detail. I actually LIKE the blood and guts aspect of it. Maybe there is something wrong with that. Maybe we're all sick. What do you think about the possible negative philosophical repercussions of ASL? :crosseye:

 

[Psycho]

I think you should spit in the face of those wussy assed Nancys that are judging you! :angry:

Seriously though, I don't think of my fake little army men as real soldiers dying. Pretty much the same as when watching movies. To me it is all just entertainment.

Now if I am watching real video or documentaries of warfare I do sometimes stop and think about the fact that people are dying and it saddens me somewhat (unless it's the bad guy ).

 

[Strabo]

Do I like war? Do I like people dying, building getting destroyed, lives ruined?

No.

Do I like war? Do I like simulating it, reading about it?

Yes.

Does simulating war cause deaths or buildings being destroyed? No. And that's the important difference.

 

[Blackcloud6]

My question to you all is, do you ever take a step back and ask yourselves what it is that you're doing when you push around counters that represent human beings dying?

Nope. Since I am a soldier I resolved these kinds of issues long ago. I don't care if other people like my hobby or not.

On another note, war is not necessarily "immoral." It is a fact of human existence, that no matter how much we wish for it to go away, it never will. What can be "immoral" is the why a nation or group people choose to use the instrument of war to achieve their ends.

 

[Jazz]

I just heard a series of five quick gunshots, probably a quarter mile away, and soon afterward sirens. This is common in Detroit. Still, I think of someone hurt and dying right now.

I used to have parties a lot and girls would see my ASL stuff, ask about it and say, "You like war?!"

My question to you all is, do you ever take a step back and ask yourselves what it is that you're doing when you push around counters that represent human beings dying? Do you reassure yourself that it's just a game, even though it represents death and destruction? Do you ever feel guilty playing a game like ASL for "fun", considering what it is you're trying to recreate with as much detail as possible? Let's face it, it doesn't get much more detailed than this (SMC wounded by a sniper).

Are people who disdain our hobby (there are a lot) just oversensitive? To this day I still get strange looks when I tell someone at work exactly what ASL is. For me the game is only fun BECAUSE it represents war in it's most intimate detail. I actually LIKE the blood and guts aspect of it. Maybe there is something wrong with that. Maybe we're all sick. What do you think about the possible negative philosophical repercussions of ASL? :crosseye:

Being the mad dog liberal that I am, I'm probably a prime candidate for one of those folks who think it's weird. Even more strange, 2 of my regular ASL opponents happen to be combat veterans AND mad dog liberals that make me look downright moderate.

To me, it is an intellectual competition between 2 or more opponents based on warfare, which has been a feature of human relations since before history.

It's a game with cardboard playing pieces. If those pieces of cardboard that you push around on the board are any more than cardboard, then you really do need to step back and think about it.

Should chess players go through the same angst? It is, afterall, based on warfare also.

 

[jpellam]

It is simply a game.

I just heard a series of five quick gunshots, probably a quarter mile away, and soon afterward sirens. This is common in Detroit. Still, I think of someone hurt and dying right now.

I used to have parties a lot and girls would see my ASL stuff, ask about it and say, "You like war?!"

My question to you all is, do you ever take a step back and ask yourselves what it is that you're doing when you push around counters that represent human beings dying? Do you reassure yourself that it's just a game, even though it represents death and destruction? Do you ever feel guilty playing a game like ASL for "fun", considering what it is you're trying to recreate with as much detail as possible? Let's face it, it doesn't get much more detailed than this (SMC wounded by a sniper).

Are people who disdain our hobby (there are a lot) just oversensitive? To this day I still get strange looks when I tell someone at work exactly what ASL is. For me the game is only fun BECAUSE it represents war in it's most intimate detail. I actually LIKE the blood and guts aspect of it. Maybe there is something wrong with that. Maybe we're all sick. What do you think about the possible negative philosophical repercussions of ASL? :crosseye:

It is simply a game. None of that hyper sensitive Liberal crap applies. :clown:

 

[Aries]

Being that I can't really add to a topic we have already done a number of times (with the same end results) I would like to illustrate an interesting historical perspective.

At one time, to be a surgeon was to be part of a "vulgar" profession. It was less looked down on, to be a Barber.

Interesting eh, considering how we think of surgeons today.

I don't "love" war, any idiot that would imply I do, is likely also completely bereft of any real understanding of why the last war occurred too.

Wars begin when we have forgotten the horror of the previous one.
Thus, those that study war, are likely less responsible for starting the next one.
Thus, those displaying obvious disgust, likely have more connection to the group that will cause the next unfortunate event for us to spend energy on recreating so as not to forget.

Next time someone looks on your hobby as if you are some warmonger, remind, them, you'd have fewer wargames, if they started fewer wars.

 

[Pitman]

Next time someone looks on your hobby as if you are some warmonger, remind, them, you'd have fewer wargames, if they started fewer wars.

Aries: So now my SS troops will massacre all my Soviet prisoners.
Onlooker: Are you really playing a game in which you voluntarily commit atrocities?
Aries: Hey, there'd be fewer wargames out there if you would start less wars.
Onlooker: I have never started a war. Nor have I tried to simulate a war crime.
Aries: Oh.

 

[Robin Reeve]

One proof that we don't like war is that if war was led by wargamers, it would be a terrible failure.

 

[Pitman]

First you'd have to pre-order the war, then wait and wait for it finally to come out. If you pre-ordered the war from HOB, there's be printing problems. If you pre-ordered it from Critical Hit, it would soon be replaced by a second edition of the war that they now want you to order.

And the errata is a bitch.

 

[alanp]

Onlooker: "Wargame? Do you think war is a game?"

Joe Wargamer: "Do you think this is war?"

:smoke:

 

[Pitman]

Onlooker: no, it seems to be a cartoonish attempt to derive recreation by simulating the death of people from an actual war.

 

[Robin Reeve]

To be coherent, people who consider wargames to support or to be identified with war should abstain from : looking at westerns and thrillers, reading whodunnits and classical theater when military history is involved, playing chess and all games that involve elimination of the opponent, etc.

 

[Tork]

I have not told the woman I work with, who grew up in Leningrad/St. Petersberg, and whose mother had lived in Leningrad all her life, just why I know so much about Russian history and geography. I figure that might just be too close to home for her.

She was so pleased I knew about Lake Ladoga though. Not a standard American.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Ask all the people who disapprove if they enjoy murder, infidelity, rape, incest and then ask if they watch soap opera or evening television or CSI.

 

[A Lost Canadian]

The way I look at it is the fact that I spend my free time willing recreating the costly conflict in human history is that that is the lest of my moral worries. :nuts:

ASL is just an abstration. Those pieces of carboard could be made to represent anything. They could be made into some sci-fi aliens vs humans battle for earth, ancient civiclisation of old fighting for global domination, hippies vs riot police even.

And besides better beating up cardboard people then real people is it not?

 

[Jazz]

I have not told the woman I work with, who grew up in Leningrad/St. Petersberg, and whose mother had lived in Leningrad all her life, just why I know so much about Russian history and geography. I figure that might just be too close to home for her.

She was so pleased I knew about Lake Ladoga though. Not a standard American.

I work with a younger (like 30's?) guy from Moldovia...I think he came out right after the fall of the Soviet Union. He is amazed that I know about places/things like Velikiye Luki. He was really impressed when I asked him why he spoke Russian and had a Rumanian last name.

I can pass it all off because my parents left the Soviet Union (or Lithuania just before it became part of the Soviet Union again in summer of '44) so by my upbringing I can claim a more in depth knowledge of that part of the world.

 

[Matt Book]

I have always said that if you took the historical values off the counters and left nothing but the info/numerical values then how does the game change ? Everything still apllies as such. You can't even put ASL in the same corner as those who argue that violent video games making society worse.

 

[jserrano]

Does watching pornographic magazines means I enjoy abusing or denigrating women?
Does reading thrillers or horror books means I relish on the suffering of people?
Does playing a Barbarrosa wargame identifies myself with Hitler or Stalin ideas?
Does going to the mosk makes me a potential suicidal killer?
Does eating a burger means I do not care about the wellbeing of animals?

There are many selfrighteus people out there that jump at the opportunity to judge others... I normally despise those people.

To the question: "Are you really playing a game in which you voluntarily commit atrocities?" I may answer a laconic. "Yes".
To the question: "Wargame? Do you think war is a game?" I may deign to answer "No".

:hush: I do not feel the need to explain my actions unless I have done some harm. I do not feel the need to explain why I read/play/watch what I read/play/watch any more that I need to explain why I am an atheist or why I went to Somalia with MSF last spring.

José :smoke:

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Does watching pornographic magazines means I enjoy abusing or denigrating women?

José :smoke:

No, but if you're doing it from across the room, I gotta tell you, you're doing something wrong.

I bet you wear leather shoes too...