ASL AFV Tactics Question

Kijug

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So a German AFV made a bummer move and is vulnerable.

It’s the American MPh and an American AFV moves in its MPh behind the German AFV and stops. Both are BU and CAs are as shown. The American AFV wants to shoot its MA at the German AFV. The "typical" Firer-Based TH DRM of +5 exists (Case C+4 and Case I+1). Now, because both vehicles are stopped, the Target-Based TH DRM of Case L-2 applies for a total TH of 10 with DRM+3...correct? (This was as tactic shown me a few years ago to help counter some of the “+5” DRM.)

22053

The American AFV needs a TH roll of 7 and the TK roll is all but guaranteed. What should the ENEMY do? Suck it up as poor planning on his part? Or should the German AFV perform a Motion Attempt? If successful, the Case L DRM is N/A and the American is back to a TH of 10 with DRM+5.

So first off, the German player has to figure if the American can roll a 5 or 7 and that figures in to his Motion Attempt decision...correct?

Now assume the German survives and is NOT in Motion. In the ensuing German PFPh, the German spins his top two-clicks to the left. His TH DRMs are Case A+2 (clicks), Case I+1 (BU), and Case L-2 (range) for a total TH of 10 with DRM+1...correct?

Or, assume the German survives and IS in Motion. In the ensuing German PFPh, the German spins his top two-clicks to the left. His TH DRMs are Case A+2 (clicks) and Case I+1 (BU) for a total TH of 10 with DRM+3...correct?

So during the American MPh, the German has to weigh going into Motion for the American to roll a 5 (vice 7) followed by a German PFPh roll of 7 (in Motion) vice 9 (stopped)...correct? So there are TWO rolls to consider to making a decision. Does that make sense?

So, the German PFPh and the German spins his top and is going to fire on the American AFV. Knowing a TK is all but guaranteed, should the American AFV go for a Motion Attempt? I'd say YES.

However, that puts the American back to the same “motion/stopped” question for the next attack opportunity for the American AFV.

In general, then, would folks ALWAYS go into Motion in this situation? Or stay stopped, hope for misses from his opponent, and better shots on his part?

(Hope I have all this correct =)
 

bendizoid

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So a German AFV made a bummer move and is vulnerable.

It’s the American MPh and an American AFV moves in its MPh behind the German AFV and stops. Both are BU and CAs are as shown. The American AFV wants to shoot its MA at the German AFV. The "typical" Firer-Based TH DRM of +5 exists (Case C+4 and Case I+1). Now, because both vehicles are stopped, the Target-Based TH DRM of Case L-2 applies for a total TH of 10 with DRM+3...correct? (This was as tactic shown me a few years ago to help counter some of the “+5” DRM.)

View attachment 22053

The American AFV needs a TH roll of 7 and the TK roll is all but guaranteed. What should the ENEMY do? Suck it up as poor planning on his part? Or should the German AFV perform a Motion Attempt? If successful, the Case L DRM is N/A and the American is back to a TH of 10 with DRM+5.

So first off, the German player has to figure if the American can roll a 5 or 7 and that figures in to his Motion Attempt decision...correct?

Now assume the German survives and is NOT in Motion. In the ensuing German PFPh, the German spins his top two-clicks to the left. His TH DRMs are Case A+2 (clicks), Case I+1 (BU), and Case L-2 (range) for a total TH of 10 with DRM+1...correct?

Or, assume the German survives and IS in Motion. In the ensuing German PFPh, the German spins his top two-clicks to the left. His TH DRMs are Case A+2 (clicks) and Case I+1 (BU) for a total TH of 10 with DRM+3...correct?

So during the American MPh, the German has to weigh going into Motion for the American to roll a 5 (vice 7) followed by a German PFPh roll of 7 (in Motion) vice 9 (stopped)...correct? So there are TWO rolls to consider to making a decision. Does that make sense?

So, the German PFPh and the German spins his top and is going to fire on the American AFV. Knowing a TK is all but guaranteed, should the American AFV go for a Motion Attempt? I'd say YES.

However, that puts the American back to the same “motion/stopped” question for the next attack opportunity for the American AFV.

In general, then, would folks ALWAYS go into Motion in this situation? Or stay stopped, hope for misses from his opponent, and better shots on his part?

(Hope I have all this correct =)
Tigers are large so 8 to hit.

The way I might play it is turn the turrent and fire the tiger when the Pershing stops. Gun duel is +5 to +4 so the tiger wins and better shoot first. Either fire or maybe at least try a motion attempt. Sn ?
In the German prepfire Phase no turn is required because he will already be facing the Pershing with at least a -1 aqui. If the initial prepfire fails to take out the American better intensive fire for sure.
After you take your best shot use the BMG and CMG to face the whole tiger at the Pershing. But then a hull hit is going to wreck your tiger anyway (even from the front) so maybe leave the rear facing and let it be a blazing wreck if that suits your interests.
 
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Stewart

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The German fires the 3fp BMG at the American for a free VCA change.
Then when the American foregoes the +3 Shot against an Armor he can't penetrate, he drives around the other side, only to have the CMG (using VCA changes) to repeat shot A.
Then the American ESB's to get around him again, and the German follows up with a MA shot.

JUST smoke him and move to the VC.
 

Kijug

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Thanks! That’s the kind of tactics and thinking I was looking for. I need to get better at tank battles.
 

Carln0130

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Why not just Pivot and shoot on the stop Movement point? The Tiger's Firer based mods are less. He will win the Gun Duel if the American declares it. As I read above, Mr. Bendis has already said the same thing. Never mind.
 

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Or, assume the German survives and IS in Motion. In the ensuing German PFPh, the German spins his top two-clicks to the left. His TH DRMs are Case A+2 (clicks) and Case I+1 (BU) for a total TH of 10 with DRM+3...correct?
You can't fire in the PFPh when you are in Motion, D2.4. You have to wait until the MPh.
 

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Thanks! That’s the kind of tactics and thinking I was looking for. I need to get better at tank battles.
Sometimes it’s best not to overthink things. In this kind of situation likely the most important overriding factor is WHO SHOOTS FIRST. Say you got a 40% chance to wreck the enemy but they have a 60% chance to wreck you. If you shoot first 40% of the time they ain’t shooting back so now they have a 40% x 60% = 24 and 60-24= 36% to wreck if you shoot first. By shooting first you ‘steal’ some odds and in this case gain a edge.
 
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Wayne

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The German fires the 3fp BMG at the American for a free VCA change.
Neat idea, generically, but the outcome is uncertain (TK math aside).

Ami's Firer-Based DRMs =
+2+2 Case C (at least; bounding firer)
+1 Case I (buttoned up)
∑ +5 (at least)
Gerry Firer-Based DRMs =
+3+1 Case A
+1 Case I (buttoned up)
∑ +5

So, assuming Fire-based DRMs are a 5 v 5 tie, re an Ami-declared D2.2401 gun duel, TBD duel winner is determined via lowest Final TH/IFT DR.

Re Final DR DRM,
Ami is
+5 Firer based (as above)
-2 Case L (point blank)
-1 Case P (target size)
Aggregate +2
Gerry is
+5 Firer-based (as above)
+2 Case J (at least; moving vehicle)
-2 Case L (point blank)
Aggregate +5

So, there'd be D2.2401concurrent DRs, lowest Final DR winning the duel and (given the DRMs) the expected result is that Ami would win the duel.

If Ami wins the duel, Ami shot will be vs pre-spin Gerry armor facing. [Edit: not necessarily; see below]

[If Ami opts to go CE on his Stop MP, say, and Gerry spins VCA to D1F vs that MP, an Ami-declared Gun Duel would be an auto-win for the Ami -- ∑4 v ∑5 Firer-based DRMs;
If Gerry decides instead to spin just TCA vs CE Ami, Firer-based DRMs would be a 4 v 4 tie, and Final TH DRs would be compared to determine winner of the Gun Duel, w/Ami still the expected winner.]

{Can't recall that I've ever been in an ASL Gun Duel; guess that's still on my ASL Bucket List}
 
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klasmalmstrom

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So, there'd be D2.2401concurrent DRs, lowest Final DR winning the duel and (given the DRMs) the expected result is that Ami would win the duel.

If Ami wins the duel, Ami shot will be vs pre-spin Gerry armor facing.
IIRC, if the DEFENDER Gun Duel DRM (not Final TH DR) is <= ATTACKER's Gun Duel DRM - the DEFENDER's CA change occurs before the ATTACKER's attack even if the DEFENDER loses the Gun Duel.

NRBH, so I could be remembering wrong.
 

Carln0130

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Neat idea, generically, but the outcome is uncertain (TK math aside).

Ami's Firer-Based DRMs =
+2+2 Case C (at least; bounding firer)
+1 Case I (buttoned up)
∑ +5 (at least)
Gerry Firer-Based DRMs =
+3+1 Case A
+1 Case I (buttoned up)
∑ +5

So, assuming Fire-based DRMs are a 5 v 5 tie, re an Ami-declared D2.2401 gun duel, TBD duel winner is determined via lowest Final TH/IFT DR.

Re Final DR DRM,
Ami is
+5 Firer based (as above)
-2 Case L (point blank)
-1 Case P (target size)
Aggregate +2
Gerry is
+5 Firer-based (as above)
+2 Case J (at least; moving vehicle)
-2 Case L (point blank)
Aggregate +5

So, there'd be D2.2401concurrent DRs, lowest Final DR winning the duel and (given the DRMs) the expected result is that Ami would win the duel.

If Ami wins the duel, Ami shot will be vs pre-spin Gerry armor facing.

[If Ami opts to go CE on his Stop MP, say, and Gerry spins VCA to D1F vs that MP, an Ami-declared Gun Duel would be an auto-win for the Ami -- ∑4 v ∑5 Firer-based DRMs;
If Gerry decides instead to spin just TCA vs CE Ami, Firer-based DRMs would be a 4 v 4 tie, and Final TH DRs would be compared to determine winner of the Gun Duel, w/Ami still the expected winner.]

{Can't recall that I've ever been in an ASL Gun Duel; guess that's still on my ASL Bucket List}
Don't pivot the whole tank, just the turret. German wins, no Gun Duel, 9 or less TH on the American tank, unless it just popped into LOS, even then minimum of 2 MP since it stopped. German wins, no Gun Duel need apply and at worst, an 8 TH, depending on LOS possibly a 9. I'd take those odds and if they gack the DR, they deserve to die. :)
 

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So a German AFV made a bummer move and is vulnerable.

It’s the American MPh and an American AFV moves in its MPh behind the German AFV and stops. Both are BU and CAs are as shown. The American AFV wants to shoot its MA at the German AFV. The "typical" Firer-Based TH DRM of +5 exists (Case C+4 and Case I+1). Now, because both vehicles are stopped, the Target-Based TH DRM of Case L-2 applies for a total TH of 10 with DRM+3...correct? (This was as tactic shown me a few years ago to help counter some of the “+5” DRM.)

View attachment 22053

The American AFV needs a TH roll of 7 and the TK roll is all but guaranteed. What should the ENEMY do? Suck it up as poor planning on his part? Or should the German AFV perform a Motion Attempt? If successful, the Case L DRM is N/A and the American is back to a TH of 10 with DRM+5.

So first off, the German player has to figure if the American can roll a 5 or 7 and that figures in to his Motion Attempt decision...correct?

Now assume the German survives and is NOT in Motion. In the ensuing German PFPh, the German spins his top two-clicks to the left. His TH DRMs are Case A+2 (clicks), Case I+1 (BU), and Case L-2 (range) for a total TH of 10 with DRM+1...correct?

Or, assume the German survives and IS in Motion. In the ensuing German PFPh, the German spins his top two-clicks to the left. His TH DRMs are Case A+2 (clicks) and Case I+1 (BU) for a total TH of 10 with DRM+3...correct?

So during the American MPh, the German has to weigh going into Motion for the American to roll a 5 (vice 7) followed by a German PFPh roll of 7 (in Motion) vice 9 (stopped)...correct? So there are TWO rolls to consider to making a decision. Does that make sense?

So, the German PFPh and the German spins his top and is going to fire on the American AFV. Knowing a TK is all but guaranteed, should the American AFV go for a Motion Attempt? I'd say YES.

However, that puts the American back to the same “motion/stopped” question for the next attack opportunity for the American AFV.

In general, then, would folks ALWAYS go into Motion in this situation? Or stay stopped, hope for misses from his opponent, and better shots on his part?

(Hope I have all this correct =)


When deciding on the tactics to use the desired outcome will play a part. In this case are either of the vehicles involved in the victory Conditions? Which turns into, is it more important for the Tiger to survive or the Pershing to be eliminated? I realize that this is just a tactics discussion and not scenario specific. But the right choice can / will depend on other factors. I don't think there is an ALWAYS answer.

If you want the Tiger to have the best chance of survival I say go for Motion and Smoke. Making the Pershings TH a 2 if you get both or a 4 if you get one or the other. And if the Motion is successful then also change VCA to face the woods to exit the Pershings LOS in bypass next Mph. Yes, I know, side armor, but the chances of the Tiger surviving a front hit are minimal anyway especially if special ammo is still available.

Even the above maximum survival decision depends on additional factors though. How many MP did the Pershing spend in LOS? Can the Tiger continue around the unseen Woods hexsides to get out of bypass?, etc.

Seth
 

Wayne

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IIRC, if the DEFENDER Gun Duel DRM (not Final TH DR) is <= ATTACKER's Gun Duel DRM - the DEFENDER's CA change occurs before the ATTACKER's attack even if the DEFENDER loses the Gun Duel.

NRBH, so I could be remembering wrong.
No, I believe you are correct (thank you).

Here's the essential bit (the "if...otherwise" verbiage re-ordered for clarity):
eASLRB C2.2401 said:
...if the DEFENDER’s total Gun Duel DRM is ≤ the ATTACKER’s
Any CA change the DEFENDER requires in order to shoot (5.11) is made before the ATTACKER’s shot​
otherwise
its CA changes (if still able to) after the ATTACKER’s shot. ...​
w/"total Gun Duel DRM" defined as "its total Firer-Based [5.] and Acquisition [6.5] TH DRM for its potential shot"
 

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This is a good and useful exercise to do, but in a similar vein to the "what's the VC's?" question, sometimes the answer to these tank vs tank situations is also affected by the rest of the units around them. Does the US player have other AFVs that can follow on to this first attack, thus making this less of an all-or-nothing proposition for them? Can the German player rely on other units to take out the US tank at any point? Etc. That's a big part of the beauty of combined arms - the supporting units allow the Tiger to not be put in this dilemma.
 

Eagle4ty

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When deciding on the tactics to use the desired outcome will play a part. In this case are either of the vehicles involved in the victory Conditions? Which turns into, is it more important for the Tiger to survive or the Pershing to be eliminated? I realize that this is just a tactics discussion and not scenario specific. But the right choice can / will depend on other factors. I don't think there is an ALWAYS answer.

If you want the Tiger to have the best chance of survival I say go for Motion and Smoke. Making the Pershings TH a 2 if you get both or a 4 if you get one or the other. And if the Motion is successful then also change VCA to face the woods to exit the Pershings LOS in bypass next Mph. Yes, I know, side armor, but the chances of the Tiger surviving a front hit are minimal anyway especially if special ammo is still available.

Even the above maximum survival decision depends on additional factors though. How many MP did the Pershing spend in LOS? Can the Tiger continue around the unseen Woods hexsides to get out of bypass?, etc.

Seth
He also gets a free turret spin with the Motion attempt if successful so a turret spin to hexspine #5 would give him a better chance of survival if hit in the front of the turret (21-14=8 with normal AP). If he gets a Hull Hit with normal AP or successfully gets APCR & a hit anywhere, the tiger's dead anyway barring a dud. To shoot it out with the Pershing makes very little sense as the Tiger won't have APCR in '45 and a 21-18=3 (turret) or a 21-14=7 (Hull) shot is not great odds with a follow-on shot that has a fairly good chance of having APCR from the Pershing (APCR=7). Even with the additional chance of immobilization (D2.51) on the Motion Start attempt, his chance of getting his sD7 are fair to good and the additional Smoke and Motion status (getting rid of Case L) makes getting a hit by the Pershing somewhat less than optimal.
 

bendizoid

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Neat idea, generically, but the outcome is uncertain (TK math aside).

Ami's Firer-Based DRMs =
+2+2 Case C (at least; bounding firer)
+1 Case I (buttoned up)
∑ +5 (at least)
Gerry Firer-Based DRMs =
+3+1 Case A
+1 Case I (buttoned up)
∑ +5

So, assuming Fire-based DRMs are a 5 v 5 tie, re an Ami-declared D2.2401 gun duel, TBD duel winner is determined via lowest Final TH/IFT DR.

Re Final DR DRM,
Ami is
+5 Firer based (as above)
-2 Case L (point blank)
-1 Case P (target size)
Aggregate +2
Gerry is
+5 Firer-based (as above)
+2 Case J (at least; moving vehicle)
-2 Case L (point blank)
Aggregate +5

So, there'd be D2.2401concurrent DRs, lowest Final DR winning the duel and (given the DRMs) the expected result is that Ami would win the duel.

If Ami wins the duel, Ami shot will be vs pre-spin Gerry armor facing. [Edit: not necessarily; see below]

[If Ami opts to go CE on his Stop MP, say, and Gerry spins VCA to D1F vs that MP, an Ami-declared Gun Duel would be an auto-win for the Ami -- ∑4 v ∑5 Firer-based DRMs;
If Gerry decides instead to spin just TCA vs CE Ami, Firer-based DRMs would be a 4 v 4 tie, and Final TH DRs would be compared to determine winner of the Gun Duel, w/Ami still the expected winner.]

{Can't recall that I've ever been in an ASL Gun Duel; guess that's still on my ASL Bucket List}
The Gun Duel rules are one of the finest innovations in ASL and really not that complicated but intuitive. Look for opportunities with Sherman tanks, especially gyro equipped because vehicle note ‘R’ is very special. It says Gun Duel modifiers are halved FRD, ridiculous !

Another reason to keep your armored leaders secret. Does he have another -1 for the Gun Duel ?

A fun/tense moment in a game might be when the firer based DR mods are the same and you have a ‘roll off’. Makes both players nervous, lol.
 
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Kijug

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…and to think I was looking for a simple yes/no kind of answer. LOL.
This is all great stuff, y’all! Love the intricacies of this game.
 

bendizoid

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…and to think I was looking for a simple yes/no kind of answer. LOL.
This is all great stuff, y’all! Love the intricacies of this game.
One thing that took awhile for me to figure out was the sequence in a MP expentidure. First the moving tank sends a MP then the DEFENDER decides if he wants to fire THEN the moving tank can either fire or Gun Duel. Goes like this: “My tank stops. Do you wish to fire?” Answer:”No”. “Ok, I’ll take my bounding fire shot”. OR: “My tank stops. Do you want to fire?” Answer: “Yes”. “Ok, I’ll declare a Gun Duel”. So, first spend, then pause, then fire.

Oh please, when you spend that point to stop don’t say you are going to fire, make him sweat it out, do the math, ect...after they say there is no shot or panics and does something stupid, then either shoot or delay and make him think about it again. Then, when the vibe is right and the math adds up, pull the trigger and blast them to kingdom come.

I gotta say, one reason ASL is cool is the inter-reactions on a MP by MP basis. In ASL you don’t sit there and wait for your opponent’s turn to end. You are, or better be a active participant in most all the turn phases. When that tanks stops, aiming at your best guys, you better think about it and more than that, do something!
 
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…and to think I was looking for a simple yes/no kind of answer. LOL.
This is all great stuff, y’all! Love the intricacies of this game.
Just play people who are good with armor. They'll show you some evil, evil, stuff. Then you turn around and use it on others. Spread the love.

I remember when Bret Hildebran blew my mind by driving up next to my tank, stopping, and then starting up and moving THROUGH my hex, stopping again and blowing me away from the other side. You don't think of these things til you're shown just how low someone will go in order to win a scenario. Then you stoop that low too :)
 

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…and to think I was looking for a simple yes/no kind of answer. LOL.
This is all great stuff, y’all! Love the intricacies of this game.
Here’s a rule I tend to follow: If you don’t know what to do with your tanks, most likely on defense, keep them together. They kinda guard each other and make shenanigans (like the pershing is doing) harder to pull off.

Thinking, wouldn’t that tiger so appreciate a little half squad escort hang’in out with it or nearby ? Something to consider in the future, particularly as a German: Give your cool tanks a entourage .

Sometimes infantry can be used in adjacent hexes mostly for the purpose of blocking shots out and least make them sneaky bounding fire AFVs BU and pick a different hex. But not in ‘44 or ‘45, those years they are there to block shots and use PFs and ATTMs.
 
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