Arnhem scenario design AAR/DAR

NUTTERNAME

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http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=110294


JonS has been working on a scenario design AAR to give some insight into both the editor and how he goes about creating a scenario.
JonS? Ughhhh.

I haven't read through the whole thread, mostly because I like to stay awake, but I think this website gives ideas for better scenarios and 'campaigns'. Interestingly, the casualty rates for the 9 day battle for some units. 50-65% being mentioned for some.

http://www.defendingarnhem.com/OoB.htm

Hard to imagine some of those battles being modeled without flamethrowers or fire. Other tactics, like sticking a 75mm AFV weapon inside a enemy window, and firing smoke or HE, also might be missed. Things like blocked streets or bridges also may make the minute modeling inaccurate.

In any case....Ughhhh!!!
 

Chelco

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Scenario design after action report? LOL, man. Why calling it AAR or DAR? Name it a feature, article or something ...
 

NUTTERNAME

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Scenario design after action report? LOL, man. Why calling it AAR or DAR? Name it a feature, article or something ...
I hope that JonS puts 40mm 'Ack-Ack' guns with settable fuses in the thing. I get such a hearty snickering from reading the the "Unbearable lightness..." thread that is spewing such disinformation. Chuckles go out to Emry's silliness and others just blatantly dropping falsehoods at that forum. And Newbies even thanking them! Oh! The humanity!

I want that thread renamed "The Unbearable whiteness of awful aged wargamers".
 

dalem

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No one here needs my endorsement, but JonS knows his shinola and makes great scenarios involving the Brits. I'm sure his word is worth listening to.

-dale
 

Chelco

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That's right. JonS's stuff is top notch and I am a big fan.

Just wanted to comment on the misuse of the "AAR" thing ...
And don't get me started on this new construct "During Action Report"!

Cheers,
 

NUTTERNAME

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Yes, I don't need your endorsement. And, yes, JonS is part of the CW-Mafia and we know the shinola.

In any case, the game must be kludged to the environment as far as the 'urban' warfare and weapons and tactics used. JonS will probably just crank out a semi-fictional effort with a pro-CW slant to it.

Due to the rear-area and training elements involved, the Germans used an array of old weapons to good effect. Things like 37mm ATG, 47mm SP guns, panzerIII and French armor come to mind. But these will probably be given the 'pack' status. Meaning, at this point, never to be done. What's the pack-schedule again?

Hopefully the 'design AAR/DAR' sheds light on the state of product improvement. Given the failure of the latest demo to work, maybe these long drawn out threads where Emry foggily recalls some PBS TV show can highlight how the game is improving or addressing real world tactical modeling.
 

Chelco

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Oh yea, real world tactical modeling ... I may have missed your enlightening contributions on this topic, so please kindly point me to those. All I can find is data worshiping, rivet counting and the ocassional piece of useless and obscure trivia.
 

NUTTERNAME

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Oh yea, real world tactical modeling ... I may have missed your enlightening contributions on this topic, so please kindly point me to those. All I can find is data worshiping, rivet counting and the ocassional piece of useless and obscure trivia.
Well, since you did say please...

I recently started a discourse on the need for bringing back the command delay as a function of a unit's losses. This is in regards to the 'death match' behavior that CM produces. There is no regard for casualties since there are no real world type consequences. Hence, I think that the player needs to be penalized as far as commands having delays.

So, what great contributions have you made?
 

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I think my 'Mortar Moron' thread may have also been instrumental in some of the mortar changes.
 

Chelco

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I recently started a discourse on the need for bringing back the command delay as a function of a unit's losses. This is in regards to the 'death match' behavior that CM produces. There is no regard for casualties since there are no real world type consequences. Hence, I think that the player needs to be penalized as far as commands having delays.
I love this idea in paper. But I wonder: you are talking about leader losses or just personnel losses? A squad leader with less privates may have a better chance to get his orders executed faster if the squad has suffered some attrition. Simple orders which are part of the CM menu, anyway ...
Any chances it gets considered?


So, what great contributions have you made?
For Combat Mission, not great and not much really ... Just some notes on my blog. Surely less than JonS's contributions!

Levels of Tactical Proficiency: The Advanced Wargamer and Terrain - Combat Mission Battle for Normandy
Levels of Tactical Proficiency: The Intermediate Wargamer and Terrain - Combat Mission Battle for Normandy
Levels of Tactical Proficiency: The Beginner Wargamer and Terrain, Part 2 - Combat Mission Battle for Normandy
Levels of Tactical Proficiency: The Beginner Wargamer and Terrain, Part 1 - Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

Combat Mission Battle for Normandy - A Note on Combat Functions/Services and Weapon Systems
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy - More Notes on Combat Functions/Services and Weapon Systems
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy - Yet Another, Final Note on Combat Functions/Services and Weapon Systems

Combat Mission Battles for Normandy Commonwealth Forces - What's a Good Infantry Tank Anyway? - Intro and First Shots
Combat Mission Battles for Normandy Commonwealth Forces - What's a Good Infantry Tank Anyway? - Downtown

Combat Mission Battles for Normandy - Busted by the Bocage - Breaching ... Stalling ... Failing
Combat Mission Battles for Normandy - Busted by the Bocage - Drop Your Fire and Movement Theories at the Breach Point, Soldier ...

And this is an AAR for an scenario I made, which got downloaded by unsuspecting players like eight times (i.e. it sucked). But it may contain some tactical nuggets too.
Combat Mission Fortress Italy AAR - Il Cortile Fortificato di Gela

And some notes form what I am currently playing in the Gustav Line module.
Combat Mission Fortress Italy Gustav Line - Notes from the Front
 

NUTTERNAME

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I love this idea in paper. But I wonder: you are talking about leader losses or just personnel losses? A squad leader with less privates may have a better chance to get his orders executed faster if the squad has suffered some attrition. Simple orders which are part of the CM menu, anyway ...
Any chances it gets considered?
It would actually depend on the unit. By that I mean a unit such as the US Airbourne, who had trained for years, and had a combat jump under it's belt, would suffer less from these delay penalties and also recover from this 'state' (during Market Garden, let's say). On the other hand, a largely inexperienced rear-echelon ad-hoc unit that takes large numbers of casualties in a short period of time might find itself paralyzed within a CM timeframe.

I am also a big proponent of 'Orders Limiting' or having menu options not available for units under certain conditions. Again, my drift is to limit the player and punish them for inept command.

Not saying I am right, just that I am not fixated on the number of rivets used on M3 Grant tanks.

M3 tanks (sorry, can't help myself) were actually designed by Army engineers. Civilian engineers were brought in later and just aghast at the riveting and design itself. Supposedly, the Army engineers defended the design and claimed that armor couldn't be welded. Any wonder how long it takes to drill holes for all those rivets in armor? In any case, Tank design was shifted away from the Army engineers and into the automotive realm.
 

Geordie

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I love this idea in paper. But I wonder: you are talking about leader losses or just personnel losses? A squad leader with less privates may have a better chance to get his orders executed faster if the squad has suffered some attrition. Simple orders which are part of the CM menu, anyway ...
Any chances it gets considered?




For Combat Mission, not great and not much really ... Just some notes on my blog. Surely less than JonS's contributions!

Levels of Tactical Proficiency: The Advanced Wargamer and Terrain - Combat Mission Battle for Normandy
Levels of Tactical Proficiency: The Intermediate Wargamer and Terrain - Combat Mission Battle for Normandy
Levels of Tactical Proficiency: The Beginner Wargamer and Terrain, Part 2 - Combat Mission Battle for Normandy
Levels of Tactical Proficiency: The Beginner Wargamer and Terrain, Part 1 - Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

Combat Mission Battle for Normandy - A Note on Combat Functions/Services and Weapon Systems
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy - More Notes on Combat Functions/Services and Weapon Systems
Combat Mission Battle for Normandy - Yet Another, Final Note on Combat Functions/Services and Weapon Systems

Combat Mission Battles for Normandy Commonwealth Forces - What's a Good Infantry Tank Anyway? - Intro and First Shots
Combat Mission Battles for Normandy Commonwealth Forces - What's a Good Infantry Tank Anyway? - Downtown

Combat Mission Battles for Normandy - Busted by the Bocage - Breaching ... Stalling ... Failing
Combat Mission Battles for Normandy - Busted by the Bocage - Drop Your Fire and Movement Theories at the Breach Point, Soldier ...

And this is an AAR for an scenario I made, which got downloaded by unsuspecting players like eight times (i.e. it sucked). But it may contain some tactical nuggets too.
Combat Mission Fortress Italy AAR - Il Cortile Fortificato di Gela

And some notes form what I am currently playing in the Gustav Line module.
Combat Mission Fortress Italy Gustav Line - Notes from the Front
Thanks for those links, some really good interesting stuff there.

also, I find John S work in CM very good as well. There's so few guys making really good stuff that we should encourage them to do more of anything. New CM scenarios don't seem to be as easy to make as the old ones did.

Cheers
 

NUTTERNAME

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A squad leader with less privates may have a better chance to get his orders executed faster if the squad has suffered some attrition. Simple orders which are part of the CM menu, anyway ...
Any chances it gets considered?
As far as the survivors benefiting from attrition...can you provide any possible reason why? Can you provide any evidence or share your reasoning about such a statement being true? No offense, but it is a very odd observance.

In the game, a squad can be sub-divided into 'AT' and other sub-unit parts. There does not seem to be any delay penalty from doing so.
 

Chelco

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As far as the survivors benefiting from attrition...can you provide any possible reason why? Can you provide any evidence or share your reasoning about such a statement being true? No offense, but it is a very odd observance.

In the game, a squad can be sub-divided into 'AT' and other sub-unit parts. There does not seem to be any delay penalty from doing so.
I agree on penalties for subdivisions into teams.

But for the whole squad. What I am talking about is this:

The squad leader is responsible for fire direction and movement. Assuming he keeps his squad not divided ... Less privates means less moving parts and things are more easy to execute.
 

Chelco

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Thanks for those links, some really good interesting stuff there.

also, I find John S work in CM very good as well. There's so few guys making really good stuff that we should encourage them to do more of anything. New CM scenarios don't seem to be as easy to make as the old ones did.

Cheers
Thanks for reading Geordie. Stay tuned, more coming in the following days.

Cheers,
 

NUTTERNAME

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I agree on penalties for subdivisions into teams.

But for the whole squad. What I am talking about is this:

The squad leader is responsible for fire direction and movement. Assuming he keeps his squad not divided ... Less privates means less moving parts and things are more easy to execute.
In the time frame of a CM scenario, for a squad to lose 3-4 men to death and injury, would not translate into any efficiency 'bonus' unless we are talking about some cold-steel-commando types. You do realize that squads are made up of Squad Leaders, Assistant Squad Leaders, PFC's and Privates. Not that easy to contain the losses to 'privates' and not the NCO's and experienced PFC's?

Looking at it another way, what is the difference if a squad breaks off a small detachment or has an equivalently sized bunch of 'privates' shot away (in your thinking, that is)? In the game, there is no penalty for busting up squads. In fact, I hardly keep squads together at all.

I think they threw out the baby with the bathwater in the whole 1:1 revolution. Much like the Chinese revolution, where kids jumped on their bikes and rode to old people's houses and tormented and killed the aged, CM has taken a odd turning on it's old ways in the name of 'change'. Only to find itself also growing old and slowly realizing that they confused wisdom with evil.
 

Chelco

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In the time frame of a CM scenario, for a squad to lose 3-4 men to death and injury, would not translate into any efficiency 'bonus' unless we are talking about some cold-steel-commando types. You do realize that squads are made up of Squad Leaders, Assistant Squad Leaders, PFC's and Privates. Not that easy to contain the losses to 'privates' and not the NCO's and experienced PFC's?
Looking at it another way, what is the difference if a squad breaks off a small detachment or has an equivalently sized bunch of 'privates' shot away (in your thinking, that is)? In the game, there is no penalty for busting up squads. In fact, I hardly keep squads together at all.
For breaking up squads, I'm (kind of) with you. There should be some delay in orders' execution, it looks. But yet, when you break up a squad, you get those assistant squad leaders and corporals at the helm of each new team ... And managing a team takes less time than managing a squad, so why a orders' delay penalty?

As for the effects of attrition on single (i.e. not divided into teams) squad, I think the situation is more complex than what it may seem. You have one decision node (squad leader) for the entire squad, yet for one fire team you have an occasional extra decision node (asst. squad leader). And above all things, each guy in the squad may eventually ignore a fire order and point his gun at other more serious threat. That leaves you with many decision nodes at times. There is an entire school of thought that maintains that the rate of decision making and execution goes down when the amount of decision makers goes up. But it's all academic, I guess.

I'm not proposing that an attrited squad should have any type of bonuses. It's unfortunate it came out that way in my post. All I wanted to question is the idea of an attrited squad suffering additional penalties in the form of orders' delay. You correctly point out that losing a private is not as critical as loosing an assistant squad leader. This looks like a nightmare to model correctly.

I think they threw out the baby with the bathwater in the whole 1:1 revolution. Much like the Chinese revolution, where kids jumped on their bikes and rode to old people's houses and tormented and killed the aged, CM has taken a odd turning on it's old ways in the name of 'change'. Only to find itself also growing old and slowly realizing that they confused wisdom with evil.
Battlefront has survived the worst global financial crisis in decades designing and selling games for a very small niche of the entertainment market. They don't seem to be going under today, and they didn't seem to be going under yesterday. They may be even thriving. That's not throwing the baby with the bathwater. It's vision.

And if they are thriving, I wish they continue. Because no matter how much I dislike Steve's BS or other assorted peeves with the engine, since 2007 I have not been able to enjoy any other 3D tactical war game as much as Combat Mission.

Cheers,
 

NUTTERNAME

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For breaking up squads, I'm (kind of) with you. There should be some delay in orders' execution, it looks. But yet, when you break up a squad, you get those assistant squad leaders and corporals at the helm of each new team ... And managing a team takes less time than managing a squad, so why a orders' delay penalty?

As for the effects of attrition on single (i.e. not divided into teams) squad, I think the situation is more complex than what it may seem. You have one decision node (squad leader) for the entire squad, yet for one fire team you have an occasional extra decision node (asst. squad leader). And above all things, each guy in the squad may eventually ignore a fire order and point his gun at other more serious threat. That leaves you with many decision nodes at times. There is an entire school of thought that maintains that the rate of decision making and execution goes down when the amount of decision makers goes up. But it's all academic, I guess.

I'm not proposing that an attrited squad should have any type of bonuses. It's unfortunate it came out that way in my post. All I wanted to question is the idea of an attrited squad suffering additional penalties in the form of orders' delay. You correctly point out that losing a private is not as critical as loosing an assistant squad leader. This looks like a nightmare to model correctly.
Cheers,
I think there is a fundamental flaw in much of your logic. Orders roll downhill. They are not generated by sub-squad fire-groups at 'nodes'. To be clear, 'orders' should not equate simple self-preservation actions like firing at a threatening enemy, with something like a movement order...while out of communication with a squad leader...and while out of sight of all friendlies. And the adjustment and cancellation of these 'super-moves' is also Borgish.

I also think that you are confusing command and control with simple drills. But the game does not really use the concept of drills or order-menu limitations to full effect either.

As far as attrited sub-squad units, I think the game (and all games at this level) should over-take control of the remaining elements with the general goal of rejoining the squad itself. In fact, I even think that shot up squads that have lost leadership should also assimilate into platoon HQ and such. Having a platoon that can break up into many sub-elements is fine, especially for defensive type actions, but the freedom of movement and abuse of small groups of soldiers just leans the game towards the attacker.

I don't think it's an impossible fix. But I do know that BF won't even address it less fix it. There is product to crank out and it will be hammered into the current mold.
 

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I know we've talked about this idea before but since it's bouncing around again I thought I'd add my thoughts again. Aside from what I believe would affect the "fun" factor of the game, I believe the end result NUTT is looking for can already be done with no additional programming. For starters, when playing solo, a player who would like to see this, can do it manually. If you feel your unit is in a state that would warrant it to have a delay in movement, then don't issue movement orders until enough time has passed that you feel is right. If playing multi-player and both players are like minded, do the same. Beyond that, the game is already designed to account for reckless slaughter of friendly units. In the editor a scenario can be made to penalize a player for losing too high of a percentage of units and reward for force preservation. Admittedly, CMSF had a LOT more scenarios that used this. But the system is still there. In my opinion, removing the ability to fight to that last man, victory conditions be damned if the player wants, would make the game more restrictive and less flexible. Really roughed up units currently are not about to receive orders anyway. To devote a minute of programming time on this would be a waste of programming time.

This i just one knuckleheads opinion. YMMV
 
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