Armored Trains

von Marwitz

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What are the opinions of the ASL community: do we use the RR overlays for scenarios that have Armored trains (which would include BFP 1 and 2 mapboards) and/or just SSR that some road sections are RRs?
I did some playtesting on ATr back in 2010 (!)-- See attached pics--and found that the usage of overlays really enhanced play. As you see from these pics that SSRing the road as a GLRR was okay, but aesthetically disappointing. Give me trains, then give me tracks! As always, this is my own opinion. After all of these years, with so many counters, boards and overlays I really eschew playing scenarios where I have to pretend. I do not like SSRs that state all hills are wheatfields as an example. Perhaps I have too many things to ponder and do not want to have to remember more than necessary, thanks to the aging brain.
As for the counters, I think generic train counters could be white--or one color and those that are nationality specific have those specific colors.
As work progresses, I fear that these rules need to be as precise (and wordy, unfortunately) as possible as we bring in a new section of rules. Keeping it simple may lead itself to many a future debate that needs clarification. Think of how many rules debates still persist despite the many years ASL has been available.
The best news is that so far everything see looks real good. Kudos to the hard work put in so far by Steve and the original designers.
As for the counters, I think generic train counters could be white--or one color and those that are nationality specific have those specific colors.
For the given example, this is a tough call.

I have a soft spot for aesthetics, so I want to call out: If it has trains, then it's got to have tracks!

But using RR overlays here might be difficult to pull off - at least with those which currently exist. And, in some locations, it would change the terrain and LOS. There are some Orchard-Road hexes on bd48, and eliminating the Orchard part by a RR overlay would alter significantly, how this board would play.

So my answer is this:

For the given situation, you should decree by SSR that the Roads ar RR hexes instead (thinking of the RR Orchard specialty).

In general, I think that scenarios making use of trains should always use RR overlays (or boards with printed RR. This is a basic and fundamental design decision. Either use exsiting RR overlays (or make and use new ones) and 'create' the RR terrain.

von Marwitz
 

sswann

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FYI to all interested.

Besides what MMP has done...
Additional RR Track Overlays will be included including Switch overlays.
Also three different overlays of three different sized RR Stations'''
Hamlet. Village, and Town RR Stations.
Thinking about two overlays for Hillside tunnel entrances.
 

von Marwitz

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Also three different overlays of three different sized RR Stations'''
Just to reiterate my proposal:

Think about making these RR Stations compatible or instead of three RR Stations, think about, say 8 RR Station 'elements'.

The effect would be that you can combine two (out of your three) RR Stations into one big one.
Or that you have a 'building kit' with 8 RR station 'elements' that can be combined in various ways to create a large variety of RR stations.

von Marwitz
 

Alan Hume

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This sounds pretty cool to be honest, I think it would be a great addition to the system
(course, it means more money to find to pay for it though :p)
 

76mm

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Another thought for all of you. Since RR Tracks are normally kept fairly level when build, how would using the Level 0 Open Ground Green (map color) for a base counter color. The actual car drawings could be either wood brown or steel grey with the white Open-top conventions that we are already used to? Kinda like the Glider being blue on 1 side (airborne) and Green of the (Earth-bound) side.
This sounds better than the two-tone option, which I don't really care for. But I reserve the right to change my mind until I've seen a draft version!
 

Tooz

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FYI to all interested.

Besides what MMP has done...
Additional RR Track Overlays will be included including Switch overlays.
Also three different overlays of three different sized RR Stations'''
Hamlet. Village, and Town RR Stations.
Thinking about two overlays for Hillside tunnel entrances.
Love the idea on hill side tunnel entrances. More scenario ideas with this idea!
 

DWPetros

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I think the problem with transparent overlays is that the inks, pigments, dyes do not adhere to the film very well and rub off rather quickly. After a few uses all that is left is clear acetate.
Agreed. I've attempted to produce Trench overlays with transparent sheets with no success using a standard color priter. The ink wouldn't take. I hope there is some other method for this somewhere because the concept is good I think. But placing plastic (vs paper) overlays and getting them to stick and stay flat - well, that also sounds like a challenge.
 

Gordon

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When you say it wouldn't take, do you mean the printing didn't work or that the resulting overlays weren't durable? If the later, spraying them after printing with a matt clear lacquer should help.
 

thedrake

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As one of the proofreaders on this, I did suggest to Steve we should have a K-5 railroad gun. He came up with stats and I sent him an overhead image to see if a counter can be created for it.
Think would mostly be used as some sort of scenario objective, like in Hans Mielants' SASL Mission "Take Out The Railway Gun". be fun to fire it just once in ASL though!
 

Brave Lion

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I'd propose generic counters for generic units. There might be some armored trains/wagons that are specific to a certain nationality (The Germans for example used armored trains made up of individual self driven wagons of different specifications that were linked up to form a train.). In such cases, the counters should be in the nationality color.

As the situation in which two armored trains battle with each other of opposing nationalities will probably never come up, no harm is done when mixing generic armored train counters with some specific nationality counter colored ones if need be. And even in the extremely unlikely case of an 'armored train' duel, still nobody would confuse the two trains..

Generic counters are usually black on white (Wagons, Sidecars, Motorcycles, Bulldozers, Skis, Mines, Wire, Parachutes, Horses, ...) as you have pointed out. So this would be my proposal for generic armored train counters as well.

von Marwitz
To my knowledge, there was only one known instance of train vs. train combat in history. Two opposing trains (one Red and the other White) fought each other over the course of 3 days during the Russian Civil War. Don't remember which one ended up the victor in that duel.

IMHO, generic black on white counters could be used for boxcars, flatcars, etc. while two-toned white edged with national color counters can be used for specific locomotives, cannon cars, and other nationality specific cars.
 

Brave Lion

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No.

I reject Nazi ideology, thus I do not share the fascination that some people have for the Waffen-SS. Nazi ideology was more deeply rooted in the SS than in the Heer. Of course, there were many Nazis in the Heer. At the same time, not all members of the Waffen-SS were hardened Nazis nor was assignment to the Waffen-SS always voluntary. Altogether, the ideology permeated through the entire society, but not the entire society embraced it.

Removed Political Content

But what I meant with regard of not liking the solution was aimed at the coloring:

My personal preference in ASL is the non-multicolor vehicular counter art. Broken Ground, BFP, and others do a great job, but I just like the 'original' ASL artwork better and prefer it for its uniformity. For that reason, I never saw the need for black SS counters: It documents some fascination for the SS (not saying fascination for the ideology) which I do not share. Notably, though, there are no 'red' Guards, 'olive drab' Marines - only 'black' SS. Second, the black SS 'violate' my preference for uniformity in the counter art for a given nationality. I don't want to have MPs blue here and black there. I want one uniform system. Lastly, I think white on black coloring does not work well in itself. I prefer reading books black on white and not white on black. Same with counters.

von Marwitz
Like them or not, the Waffen SS wore black uniforms and were a very different branch of the German forces. The Waffen SS were not part of the Heer (the German Army), but they were attached to the Heer during operations. If you don't like using the black uniformed SS then use the grey uniformed SS with the SS runes as the class name. The Waffen SS were so different from the Heer units that they were almost Allied Troops instead of troops of the same nationality. To me, it is simply a recognition of their differences from that of the Heer. For what it is worth, the Kriegsmarine Naval Infantry (German Marines) and the Luftwaffe's Fallschirmjager (the German paratroops were part of the Air Force, not Army) and Field Divisions (Air Force personnel organized into infantry divisions to make up for manpower shortages but still part of the Air Force) were much more similar to the Heer than the Waffen SS. However, with that said, it is back to the discussion on trains in ASL for me.
 
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Brave Lion

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That might be a solution. Somewhat of a parallel are the 'Assault Boat' counters which look like this in the upper right corner:

2/+4

with the '+' being in reality the German cross on the cardboard counter next to the boats MFs to distinguish the faster German Assault Boats from the rest.
  • In case a RR car has no 'own' MP, you put merely the nationality symbol
  • In case of a generic Locomotive, you put merely the MPs.
  • In case of something like a German self propelled RR Car, you put the German nationality symbol followed by the MPs.
von Marwitz
What about using a white double horizontal bar with vertical crossbars "tracks" symbol without MP overprinting for non-powered rail cars and with MP overprinting for powered rail cars (locomotives and draisines)? Don't forget that some vehicles like the Japanese Type 95 SO-KI Armored Railway Vehicle and the Type 91 Armored Car are rail-capable vehicles and have off-rail capabilities as well.
 

Brave Lion

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Another consideration is the power plant for locomotives, draisines, and rail-capable vehicles. Going from last to first:

Rail-capable vehicles are usually either gasoline or diesel powered. Since they are off-rail capable their movement characteristics are denoted by their off-rail movement type and appropriate vehicle notes regarding on-rail movement.

Draisines are small railcars usually used for railway maintenance. They can be human powered or powered by a small gasoline or electric motor. Draisines cannot be used to pull trains, except possibly one or two cars for short distances. In ASL terms, a draisine is small "rail tankette" like vehicle that is rail bound, self-propelled, armed (and usually armored) vehicle used to provide rail security from partisans. The Polish Armored draisine Tatra T18 is an example of this type of light rail vehicle.

Locomotives can be either steam powered (most common up to mid-1950's), gasoline powered, diesel powered (most common after mid-1950's), gas turbine powered, or electric powered. Of these types, the most prominent in ASL would be the old steam powered locomotive. The other propulsion types are functionally equivalent in game terms. I hope that the proposed rules provide the "flavor" of steam locomotives.
 
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