Armored Assault (D9.31)

Gordon

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 6, 2017
Messages
2,491
Reaction score
2,942
Country
llUnited States
I'm no expert, but I believe it is more a function of the type of track than the particular vehicle. Mostly a nationality basis would work, although there would be exceptions (there are ALWAYS exceptions). Most if not all German, Russian and British vehicles used all metal tracks (including Shermans), while (most if not all) American vehicles had some sort of rubber-block tracks (or rubber band tracks in case of the halftracks).

Sounds like a job for @Paul M. Weir ...
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,732
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
Who DARES disturb my slumber! :devilish:

With a few exceptions like French and Soviet halftracks, only the US used rubber based tracks. The German halftracks and Pz II Ausf D used rubber padded but mainly steel tracks. The French, US and the rare Soviet halftracks used the Kégresse track system. That was basically a one piece rubber band reinforced by steel cables and spacer plates. The original concept was that a suspension unit and tracks could replace a truck's rear wheels. The downside was a lack of durability and if something tore the whole track had to be replaced. Due to their one piece construction, they were cheaper to manufacture (bigger and more expensive moulds but much, much less labour).

The other US rubber tracks were blocks of rubber with steel bars front and rear. The ends of the bars were fitted with steel connecting plates to join the rubber blocks. The bars passed side to side through the width of the tracks. In later designs you had 2 slightly separated rubber blocks (side by side) but sharing the same pair of bars. Like the more common all steel tracks, the rubber-steel shoes could be replaced individually. In service the original plain shoes lacked grip and chevrons were moulded as part of the rubber block or steel chevrons were inserted as part of the moulding process. All sorts of track pattern variations could be seen on M4 Shermans alone. The short production Grizzly, a Canadian M4A1 variant, replaced the tracks with their own all steel track (and drive sprocket). Some early M4A3E8 and M26 tanks had all steel plates, but were replaced by rubber-steel ones.

Pros? They were lighter, overall as easy to maintain/replace as all steel. There was a trade-off between steel usage and scarce rubber (especially after the Japanese seized Malaya). Overall they were easier on roads due to the extra cushioning effect of the rubber and quieter to boot. The early smooth or rubber chevron variants were extra easier on roads, though the later ones had chevrons or bars of steel for grip and had as many road tearing steel bits as you would see on a Orc's club in a fantasy film. They seemed overall to last for more miles, at least that's something the Soviets took note of. Due to their design they tended to curl up which helped when pulled up at the rear when moving forward, IE they had a little less "drag" than simple limp steel tracks.

Cons? The early tracks, allied to their narrowness, meant that they lacked grip. They were less durable in rocky or sharp gravel conditions. They burned. Their grip in ice was particularly bad, though steel tracks could become a cropper as well, as testified by the Germans adding mini-chevrons to their steel tracks.

It took time to fix the grip problem, but eventually the US must have been satisfied as rubber based or faced tracks continue to this day. Indeed many nations like the British who used steel tracks switched to rubber or rubber padded tracks post war. Nothing like the noise and having your roads torn up in peacetime to push you that way.

As to how you would reflect that in ASL, I really don't want to go there. I will note that despite the US's well deserved reputation for mechanically reliable vehicles, US halftracks have Red MP. That I put down to the flimsy nature of the Kégresse suspension and track, rather than simply due to the track alone.
 

Gordon

Forum Guru
Joined
Apr 6, 2017
Messages
2,491
Reaction score
2,942
Country
llUnited States
So the rubber-padded tracks didn't necessarily provide better grip on paved surfaces than the all steel track? If so, interesting.
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,732
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
So the rubber-padded tracks didn't necessarily provide better grip on paved surfaces than the all steel track? If so, interesting.
Like all things in life "it depends". Rubber "sticks" better on smooth surfaces while steel "bites" better. Rubber would do better on a dry, well laid but worn smooth cobble street but not always on a wet one. Ditto concrete. As for tarmac, that would depend upon the hardness or "give" of the surface. On hard packed gravel or soft-ish tarmac, steel would do better, especially if wet. Of course after a few steel tracked tanks pass over your nice road it might end up being classed as "dirt" in ASL terms.

I honestly would recommend no rule changes for rubber vs steel, it's just far too situation dependant, eg did it rain, are the vehicles ahead leaking oil, is the road recently repaired or well bedded down. etc.

As to the earlier point about DRMs, I would suggest the following:
(1) Base the DRM on the fraction/percentage of MP expended in LOS as per Eagle4ty's post #12.
(2) Reduce any such DRM by 1 provided the target vehicle moves closer in MP to the firer by half or greater the MP expended so far in that MPh.
Notes: (1) means that faster vehicle targets will often get a more beneficial DRM than slower vehicles for the same LOS "window". (2) means that vehicles that are not moving across the gun's LOS as much are easier targets.

With the possible exception of the BTs and M18, tracked vehicles are slow. Even a half decently maintained Lada would out dash/dodge a tank. The Germans were astounded by the speed and flotation of the T-34, but that was compared to their own tanks, not to a 30's runabout.
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
6,918
Reaction score
5,102
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Who DARES disturb my slumber! :devilish:

...

Cons? The early tracks, allied to their narrowness, meant that they lacked grip. They were less durable in rocky or sharp gravel conditions. They burned. Their grip in ice was particularly bad, though steel tracks could become a cropper as well, as testified by the Germans adding mini-chevrons to their steel tracks.

It took time to fix the grip problem, but eventually the US must have been satisfied as rubber based or faced tracks continue to this day. Indeed many nations like the British who used steel tracks switched to rubber or rubber padded tracks post war. Nothing like the noise and having your roads torn up in peacetime to push you that way.

As to how you would reflect that in ASL, I really don't want to go there. I will note that despite the US's well deserved reputation for mechanically reliable vehicles, US halftracks have Red MP. That I put down to the flimsy nature of the Kégresse suspension and track, rather than simply due to the track alone.
For icy conditions or mud we used to just reverse every 3rd or 4th center guide on the track. In continious operations in difficult terrain (Viet Nam lowlands) we simply dropped the rubber pads on certain track sections (normally they came in a 3 to 4 track section (my memory fails me to the exact configuration) every so often as these could be individually removed from the track section leaving just the metal frame.
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,732
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
For icy conditions or mud we used to just reverse every 3rd or 4th center guide on the track.
That's one I had not heard of. I don't know if that was practical with M3/M4 VVSS tracks as the guides were on the outside (one piece wheels vs modern paired wheels). That might have been possible with M4 HVSS tracks (M4A3E8), though I have seen no photos of same.

That did remind me that the not only were "duck bill" extensions available (often seen on M4A3E2 Jumbos), but also ice cleats. Like your inverted centre guides they were applied every 3rd to 6th shoe. The Germans had similar cleats, some that also had a duck bill extension.
 

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,732
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
Winterketten were the extensions added to standard tracks.
Ostketten were extra wide tracks, they were handed, IE left and right tracks were mirror images..
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
6,918
Reaction score
5,102
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Winterketten were the extensions added to standard tracks.
Ostketten were extra wide tracks, they were handed, IE left and right tracks were mirror images..
Oh sure, throw a bucket of cold water on the discussion with a reality notation! o_O;)
 

The Purist

Elder Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
2,917
Reaction score
1,480
Location
In my castle by the sea, Trochu, AB
First name
Gerry
Country
llCanada
In addition they don't take into consideration the direction of travel relative to the gun. An AFV travelling directly towards or away from a gun will always be easier to hit than one crossing the line of sight. Aircraft are a different matter due to their much greater speed.
Speaking as a former gunner I'll just pic a small nit here. A target rarely if ever comes directly at you and it is jinking left and right as it does (or it should be), if at all possible. When you factor in speed, even a slight deflection angle, the rolling nature of most terrain, and the comparitivly low velocity of most guns in WWII (compared to todays hyper-velocity shot), any gun that had to elevate to engage could over or under shoot an oncoming target.

It's actually a tougher shot than shooting a target driving directly across your line of sight.
 
Last edited:

Paul M. Weir

Forum Guru
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
8,706
Reaction score
3,732
Location
Dublin
First name
Paul
Country
llIreland
I can only speak from my experience in shooting rabbits with a .22" LR and I was better at estimating decreasing/increasing range than leading with a crossing target. In addition if I already had a clear shot to the rabbit, there more often was less cover to its front (between us) than to its side or rear and could keep a view longer if it was coming towards me. YMMV.
 

Jeffrey D Myers

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2011
Messages
964
Reaction score
395
Location
ABQ, NM, USA
Country
llUnited States
Speaking of rabbits, I was surprised today to see at the Art Santa Fe exhibit a print of a white rabbit done by Grace Slick....

It was stationary, so expect that it would have been an easy hit with any type of Ordnance.
 
Top