Armored Assault and road bonus

el sieve

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Hi -

Imagine the following situation: an AFV, leader, and first line squad start the MPh on a road and begin to move along the road using armored assault. Assume no use of doubletime. Normally (and assuming enough MP from the AFV), the stack could move 7 hexes along the road - 6MF including leader bonus, plus road bonus of 1.

Now assume that the leader breaks to DFF in the second hex. The squad must leave the leader behind and then stop after expending 5MF (its 4 plus the road bonus). The example in D9.31 makes it clear that the AFV may continue into a sixth hex since the stack had 6MF at the START of the MPh. But may it continue into a 7th using the leader's hypothetical road bonus?

Grateful to anyone for opinions/references. Thanks!
 

Brian W

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The example in D9.31 makes it clear that the AFV may continue into a sixth hex since the stack had 6MF at the START of the MPh. But may it continue into a 7th using the leader's hypothetical road bonus?
I thought that once the leader drops out, if the armored assault continues, then the AFV is tied to how far the remaining squad(s) can travel. But I don't see that reflected in the rules, so yes.
 

Eagle4ty

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Agreed, D9.31 states: "...that AFV cannot move farther than if it were accompanied by that same Infantry throughout the move -- even if that Infantry fails to end its MPh in the same hex..." which certainly spells it out that the vehicle can continue on regardless of any outcome by the infantry, at least as far as the infantry could have gone.
 

Brian W

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Agreed, D9.31 states: "...that AFV cannot move farther than if it were accompanied by that same Infantry throughout the move -- even if that Infantry fails to end its MPh in the same hex..." which certainly spells it out that the vehicle can continue on regardless of any outcome by the infantry, at least as far as the infantry could have gone.
The counter argument is that the some of the infantry could only go 5mf, while others could go 7mf. The last infantry moved with the AFV could only go 5mf. Does the stack move at the greatest MF available or the least?
 

Swiftandsure

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The D9.31 example reference to the MF at start of the MPh is about receive the full (2 MF) Double Time bonus.
I don't think that it allows the vehicle to move up to the potential MF of the units it is using armored assault with if they are prevented from spending them fully.
D9.31 : "that AFV cannot move farther than if it were accompanied by that same Infantry through the move" means, I think, that if its accompanying Infantry breaks or is pinned, the AFV cannot move further, as it could not have been accompanied further.
 

klasmalmstrom

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D9.31 : "that AFV cannot move farther than if it were accompanied by that same Infantry through the move" means, I think, that if its accompanying Infantry breaks or is pinned, the AFV cannot move further, as it could not have been accompanied further.
If the Infantry breaks, the AFV can continue as far as the Infantry could have gone.

Q&A:
D9.31
Situation: An AFV, a squad and a leader are conducting armored assault. CX has not been declared. After spending 4MFs and
8MPs (due to bypass usage), the stack gets hit by First Fire. The result is: leader breaks, the squad HoB’s and becomes berserk.
Question: Can the AFV continue moving? If yes, for how many MFs?
A. The AFV can go as far as the leader (expending 6 MF) could have gone if it had continued to accompany the AFV.
 

Philippe D.

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Two additional questions that came up in a recent game:

* can the possibility of Late CX be considered when determining where the Infantry could have moved?

* (this one surprised me) my opponent wanted to interpret the rules as delimiting the hexes the AFV could enter, not the whole movement. Say the Infantry is stopped on the first hex, after one MF, and it had already declared Double Time so it had 5 remaining MF. Could the AFV move forward 5 more hexes, then move turn around and move some more, provided it remained within a 5 MF range of where the Infantry stopped? (my interpretation is that you should just count how many MF the "ghost" infantry would spend moving along, and when it runs out, well, the AFV cannot enter any new hexes)
 

jrv

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* can the possibility of Late CX be considered when determining where the Infantry could have moved?
Not the possibility, but if the infantry *does* declare late CX that may be used even if the infantry and AFV don't end in the same Location. See the D9.31 EX.

JR
 

Binchois

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Two additional questions that came up in a recent game:

* can the possibility of Late CX be considered when determining where the Infantry could have moved?
Yes. See the D9.31 EXample. [Edit...JR was more exact. The "possibility" alone is not enough. The Infantry would actually have to declare the late CX]

* (this one surprised me) my opponent wanted to interpret the rules as delimiting the hexes the AFV could enter, not the whole movement. Say the Infantry is stopped on the first hex, after one MF, and it had already declared Double Time so it had 5 remaining MF. Could the AFV move forward 5 more hexes, then move turn around and move some more, provided it remained within a 5 MF range of where the Infantry stopped? (my interpretation is that you should just count how many MF the "ghost" infantry would spend moving along, and when it runs out, well, the AFV cannot enter any new hexes)
Less clear. My understanding is that the AFV is free to expend MPs as it pleases but can not travel further (in hexes) than the Infantry could have gone. [Edit: last sentence removed to avoid further confusion!]
 
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jrv

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* (this one surprised me) my opponent wanted to interpret the rules as delimiting the hexes the AFV could enter, not the whole movement. Say the Infantry is stopped on the first hex, after one MF, and it had already declared Double Time so it had 5 remaining MF. Could the AFV move forward 5 more hexes, then move turn around and move some more, provided it remained within a 5 MF range of where the Infantry stopped? (my interpretation is that you should just count how many MF the "ghost" infantry would spend moving along, and when it runs out, well, the AFV cannot enter any new hexes)
The vehicle must cease changing locations once the locations it has entered would have exhausted the MF for the infantry that started with it. The limit in D9.31 is the length of the path, not the range. I am not sure that D9.31 could be used to prove this with mathematical assurance, but I am sure what the answer to a PerrySez will be.

JR
 

Binchois

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The vehicle must cease changing locations once the locations it has entered would have exhausted the MF for the infantry that started with it. The limit in D9.31 is the length of the path, not the range. I am not sure that D9.31 could be used to prove this with mathematical assurance, but I am sure what the answer to a PerrySez will be.

JR
Yeah. This feels right to me, but the rule doesn't seem to say that. While the Infantry and AFV are moving together, the vehicle is free to expend MPs to turn, attempt smoke, and whatever else. But the RB certainly doesn't clarify that any remaining MF simply get converted to MP once the Infantry stop moving.
 

Philippe D.

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Not the possibility, but if the infantry *does* declare late CX that may be used even if the infantry and AFV don't end in the same Location. See the D9.31 EX.
OK, so if the Infantry breaks or Pins during the Armored Assault, the AFV will be limited to (the equivalent of) the original MF. Thanks, I missed that point.
 

Binchois

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OK, so if the Infantry breaks or Pins during the Armored Assault, the AFV will be limited to (the equivalent of) the original MF. Thanks, I missed that point.
I feel a bit like a fifth wheel here, plus I'm not sure I fully understand JR's take on this. But to confirm my understanding, I think that the AFV can spend as many MPs as it likes, but can only travel as far as the Infantry could have if they remained stacked with the vehicle for the duration of its move.
 

Philippe D.

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Yes, I expressed myself poorly - I was only referring to the CX bonus. The AFV only get to "use it" (in the sense, "enter a hex that the infantry could get in only through the CX bonus") if the Infantry actually declare CX (and possibly, declare CX before the Armored Assault breaks off? not clear on this). I'm pretty sure I've seen it played (or played it myself) as "when figuring out how far the AFV could go, count in the hypothetical late CX bonus", which I now know to be wrong.
 

jrv

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Yeah. This feels right to me, but the rule doesn't seem to say that. While the Infantry and AFV are moving together, the vehicle is free to expend MPs to turn, attempt smoke, and whatever else. But the RB certainly doesn't clarify that any remaining MF simply get converted to MP once the Infantry stop moving.
Not sure what you are saying here. The vehicle may continue to spend MP (e.g. to unload, place smoke, change CA, stop, delay, etc) even once it has moved to its armored assault limit. It may not enter additional locations once the accompanying infantry (or hypothetically accompanying if the stack split) could not.

JR
 

Binchois

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Not sure what you are saying here. The vehicle may continue to spend MP (e.g. to unload, place smoke, change CA, stop, delay, etc) even once it has moved to its armored assault limit. It may not enter additional locations once the accompanying infantry (or hypothetically accompanying if the stack split) could not.

JR
Ha! I didn't understand you clearly either! My post #14 above expresses better my understanding of the rule!
I feel a bit like a fifth wheel here, plus I'm not sure I fully understand JR's take on this. But to confirm my understanding, I think that the AFV can spend as many MPs as it likes, but can only travel as far as the Infantry could have if they remained stacked with the vehicle for the duration of its move.
This, in effect, creates a range and not a MP limitation. Isn't that it?
 
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jrv

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This, in effect, creates a range and not a MP limitation. Isn't that it?
Although it might be interpreted as that the way it is currently written, the intention is most likely to create a limitation on the length of the path.

JR
 
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