Armor tactics verification series!

ER_Chaser

New Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Messages
3,629
Likes
1
Points
0
Location
NYC
#1
Me and Mr. Taktik had a lengthy discussion/debate over armors in CMBB through the weekend.

My point: armor battles mainly rely on luck ---- the luck factor is too heavy.
Taktik's point: armor battles surely involve luck, however the luck factor isn't as heavy as I thought. And mainly depends on player skills and tactics.

Obviously this argument cannot be solved by words. So we decided to take it to the battlefiend and let the War decide it:

I suggested we go through the following tests:
5 pairs of mirrored games supposedly with armors heavily involved. Taktik will dictate everything about these battle setups, i.e., maps, weather conditions, turn#s, force mix ...everything, except that they must be mirrored.
I predict the result between us will be a rough draw, something like 3 wins for me, 3 wins for him and 4 draws.

I agree that if Taktik can manage anything better than that (i.e., he can win at least one more game than he loses), I will full heartedly agree to his "armor is not mainly luck" argument. Otherwise, I will tend to believe our test is proving my point (i.e., even if I win more games, I do not think it is because of anything more than luck.).

These games are to be non-ladder rated games. It is more like a technical proving tests.

And we are to follow the progress here, for some1 might be interested :)
 

ER_Chaser

New Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Messages
3,629
Likes
1
Points
0
Location
NYC
#2
The first pair of mirrored games are already set:
Oct. 1944, South, ME on a custom map (by Taktiks, I viewed it before I purchase), 3000pts, on a clear dry day, pure armor.

The map is a mountain area with quite a lot of trees, with a few flags in and around the center of the map. Both sides start from the opposite corners of the map, instead of the usual baseline setup of QBs.

Purchase already made. We are expecting first movement soon.
 

CMant

New Member
Joined
May 27, 2008
Messages
137
Likes
1
Points
0
Location
USA
#3
You should see a mix of tactics and luck , if you can get 3 tanks firing on 1 ( and that feels like luck sometimes ) you should win , but when all 3 of your tanks miss the first shot and his hits , well I guess everyone has seen that happen .
 

Taktik

New Member
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
296
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
US
#9
I see you are eager to get this rolling, ER :). So be it.

As NL mentions, I belive that skill, proper tactics, experience are more determing reasons for victory in a tank fight.

ER was surprised when I told him I've played around 50 pure armor or nearly pure armor games and lost about 2 or 3. He didn't mean a slight, but he responded that I was either extraordinary lucky or my opponents were playing asleep :). I can't be certain my opponents weren't sleeping, but I can assure anyone that my luck is aweful. I'm pretty sure I won these games despite my luck. You just have to watch me roll dice in a table-top wargaming session or a GURPS or Warhammer get together. My rolls are appalling :) ER claims his luck is just as bad so we are well matched!

Seriously, I will glady keep a running talling of our misses during these games as well. I bet I miss more :)
 

Taktik

New Member
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
296
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
US
#12
Hehe. Well, if NL did want to play with the tankies I wouldn't be able to handle another set of matches along with these. Afterwards though... :)

Still, NL did mention something about "more tanks next time" for a future rematch... :smoke:

But, indeed, I am booked up, so anything new would have to wait no matter what the game.

Later, I still want to play a mostly infantry CM-Chess fight with ER too, since if I can't use my luck, I will have to think of something else :clown:
 

ER_Chaser

New Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Messages
3,629
Likes
1
Points
0
Location
NYC
#13
Hehe. Well, if NL did want to play with the tankies I wouldn't be able to handle another set of matches along with these. Afterwards though... :)

Still, NL did mention something about "more tanks next time" for a future rematch... :smoke:

But, indeed, I am booked up, so anything new would have to wait no matter what the game.

Later, I still want to play a mostly infantry CM-Chess fight with ER too, since if I can't use my luck, I will have to think of something else :clown:
LOL ... since your luck stinks anyway.... :)
 

ER_Chaser

New Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2002
Messages
3,629
Likes
1
Points
0
Location
NYC
#14
Ok, some updates:

In the vast land of void, we move... move and move .. that is it.. Nothing else happened :D
(sorry to bore you to death :D)
 

Taktik

New Member
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
296
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
US
#18
I don't entirely agree with that. I would say most of the time. The smaller the battle the greater the weight value of each piece. One bit of god-awful rotten luck in losing a key piece can turn the game if the battle is small.
Then those would say you shouldn't have put so much importance on a single piece :)
 

Lurker

Active Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2002
Messages
1,552
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
Clearwater, Florida
#19
Then those would say you shouldn't have put so much importance on a single piece :)
The point is that in such a battle every piece is important. There will always be a probabilty factor in a rare low-chance occurance happening. The greater the weight of each unit then the greater the impact when this rotten luck occurs.

For example, let's say it's a small battle with only a few pieces of armor on each side. One of yours bogs out of range of the battle and does so on good ground (so no fault of yours there). This then tips the battle in your opponents favor as his are in good order and are hammering you. I guess we could say your opponent very skillfully caused your tank to bog and therefore won on skill alone.

We could mock up numerous such examples I'm sure. :) Superior skill does not always win out.
 

Taktik

New Member
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
296
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
US
#20
Skill should make up for such bad luck in armor. Just take lots of infantry like eveyone else :). Or, pick cheaper tanks and use skill to kill the bigger, more expensive tanks.

And, the battle you mention where EVERYTHING is critical is a very small battle indeed.

I do hear you though. I've had such luck before. Case in point, the last master of the snow tourney I had a Tiger get immob just like you depict. It didn't fire a shot the whole game. My opponent had a bunch of Ts and SUs. I was able to still win, just barely (I had lots of infantry so you and NL and ER should be happy, they were GJ at that!)

I was not skilled at the purchase screen. I should have taken a plt of StuGs which I normally would have done, but hey, I like to play with the big tanks too. :nuts: