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21Z5M

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I’m cleaning up my counter trays and resorting. I started to look at the MMCs. Based on the game we play, Which Army changed the least during WW2? I would say the Japanese. Any other thoughts?
 

Actionjick

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I’m cleaning up my counter trays and resorting. I started to look at the MMCs. Based on the game we play, Which Army changed the least during WW2? I would say the Japanese. Any other thoughts?
Just a WAG but I would put the Italian Army up for consideration.

Interesting question.
 

Actionjick

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I’m cleaning up my counter trays and resorting. I started to look at the MMCs. Based on the game we play, Which Army changed the least during WW2? I would say the Japanese. Any other thoughts?
Do you have any specific criteria for " changed " ? Unit composition? Tactics?
 

21Z5M

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Unit Composition and Tactics, which go hand in hand. Italians are a good example. The Germans are an example of how much a country changes
 

Actionjick

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Unit Composition and Tactics, which go hand in hand. Italians are a good example. The Germans are an example of how much a country changes
An Army that changed dramatically, IMO, was the U.S. Army.
 

Actionjick

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Exactly
And the most interesting point of your OP is which Army changed the least " based on the game we play. " Where the game may or may not be historically accurate.

Lol any thread that gets me thinking about " historical accuracy " is a good one for me. Well done you.
 

Actionjick

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Just a WAG but I would put the Italian Army up for consideration.

Interesting question.
After a Dark and Stormy period of conjugating and on an historical basis I would say the French. They just didn't last long enough to change. Not counting the Free French of course. Probably on a game basis also.🤔
 

21Z5M

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The French were in the middle of a change when the Germans attacked. The Japanese basically had the same weapons throughout the war. Good for the 20-30s but aging into the 40s. Their tactics were night attacks to overcome allied fire power. Reliance on the bayonet.
 

JRKrejsa

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Until they started digging in like moles and stopped trying to fight toe to toe. Iwo, Okinawa . A definite change it tactics. Weapons, not so much.

I would go with the Italians on this one.
 

21Z5M

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Until they started digging in like moles and stopped trying to fight toe to toe. Iwo, Okinawa . A definite change it tactics. Weapons, not so much.

I would go with the Italians on this one.
You are correct about digging in because the beating they took as the war went on when they resisted at the waters edge. The argument Rommel made in Normandy compared to others
 

daniel zucker

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You are correct about digging in because the beating they took as the war went on when they resisted at the waters edge. The argument Rommel made in Normandy compared to others
So is that the question? which is the better tactic fight at the waters edge or inland? I would think that fighting to break the attack and the waters edge would be the way to go
 

21Z5M

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No the original question was what Army changed the least during the war.
 

Actionjick

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I thought that the original question was what Army changed the least based on ASL. That may or may not be the same as changed in reality and is probably the more difficult question to answer.

For instance the very early war U.S. units were armed with Springfield bolt action rifles. The later units with Garand semi automatic rifles. This is reflected in the game in the counters. NRBH to check the actual counters.

That is how I interpreted the question. Any thoughts along those lines?
 

21Z5M

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I thought that the original question was what Army changed the least based on ASL. That may or may not be the same as changed in reality and is probably the more difficult question to answer.

For instance the very early war U.S. units were armed with Springfield bolt action rifles. The later units with Garand semi automatic rifles. This is reflected in the game in the counters. NRBH to check the actual counters.

That is how I interpreted the question. Any thoughts along those lines?
Yes you have it correct. The Japanese MMCs are E-1-C. Other countries changed squad fire power which created other combinations of MMC values
 

Eagle4ty

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If you are talking about all the combatants in the 2nd WW perhaps the Dutch, Belgians, Yugoslavs or Greeks changed the least as they were overcome in pretty short order and had very little chance to adapt to the changing environments presented during their part of the war. Others that may be included are Bulgaria and Romania except upon the arrival of old French equipment and German stuff allocated to them late in the war (Romania being a bit different as they attempted to upgrade a few systens as time went on). If one is talking about major combatants of the war it could certainly be Italy for the limited time they were a major contributor to the Axis cause or more certainly Japan as their army of 1938 varied little in weapons or capabilities from 1937 to 1945 given but a few upgrades to AFV systems. For my money I would pick the Japanese as the least changed army from 1937-1945.
 

Actionjick

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If you are talking about all the combatants in the 2nd WW perhaps the Dutch, Belgians, Yugoslavs or Greeks changed the least as they were overcome in pretty short order and had very little chance to adapt to the changing environments presented during their part of the war. Others that may be included are Bulgaria and Romania except upon the arrival of old French equipment and German stuff allocated to them late in the war (Romania being a bit different as they attempted to upgrade a few systens as time went on). If one is talking about major combatants of the war it could certainly be Italy for the limited time they were a major contributor to the Axis cause or more certainly Japan as their army of 1938 varied little in weapons or capabilities from 1937 to 1945 given but a few upgrades to AFV systems. For my money I would pick the Japanese as the least changed army from 1937-1945.
I will still vote for the French. 1939 to 1940 doesn't allow a lot of time for change.

Still the question of least changed in game terms is taking back seat to the historical aspect of it.

Lol you jick Actionburk you are making your French argument based on history. 🤣🤣🤣
 
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Since the question was framed on "the game we play" I think I'd agree with the Japanese. Especially if you take "the game" to include the original SL system, in which case even the allied and axis minors include both SL and ASL versions of themselves for two variations. Meanwhile the Japanese have only an ASL representation, and keep the same squad types throughout the war. This is true for the Italians as well, but (going by memory here) the default ELR as presented in chapter H skews around a lot more for the Italians depending on year for the Italians than for the Japanese (this might merit a closer look though - the Japanese ELR varies more depending on theater/foe than the Italians, if I remember correctly.)

The nationality that changes most is clearly the French. Not only do they have different versions for SL & ASL, but even their counter color(s)/symbology varies from blue to (at one point, and I think still as an option?) tan to grey (arguably - not really the same army as the rest but still French) to blue with Cross of Lorraine and wildly varying SW depending on period (French to French/UK to French/US) with sometimes tan or green 5/8" counters. Not even the Wehrmacht with all the shade variations between products (or the Finns with their one time color switch) can, I think, match the French.

Mind you, this calculus can change if you include TPP with the various alternate countersets. I'm not remotely well versed enough in that area to offer an opinion.
 

Actionjick

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Since the question was framed on "the game we play" I think I'd agree with the Japanese. Especially if you take "the game" to include the original SL system, in which case even the allied and axis minors include both SL and ASL versions of themselves for two variations. Meanwhile the Japanese have only an ASL representation, and keep the same squad types throughout the war. This is true for the Italians as well, but (going by memory here) the default ELR as presented in chapter H skews around a lot more for the Italians depending on year for the Italians than for the Japanese (this might merit a closer look though - the Japanese ELR varies more depending on theater/foe than the Italians, if I remember correctly.)

The nationality that changes most is clearly the French. Not only do they have different versions for SL & ASL, but even their counter color(s)/symbology varies from blue to (at one point, and I think still as an option?) tan to grey (arguably - not really the same army as the rest but still French) to blue with Cross of Lorraine and wildly varying SW depending on period (French to French/UK to French/US) with sometimes tan or green 5/8" counters. Not even the Wehrmacht with all the shade variations between products (or the Finns with their one time color switch) can, I think, match the French.

Mind you, this calculus can change if you include TPP with the various alternate countersets. I'm not remotely well versed enough in that area to offer an opinion.
Nice job addressing the specifics of the OP.
 

VonHutier

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Nice job addressing the specifics of the OP.
Agreed....comfortably the same units just doing things differently when put on the back foot.

Also, pretty much fought solely in the PTO...whereas their enemies ( minus the Chinese ) fought all over at some point.
 
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