Area CH on building with level zero (occupied by a concealed unit) and level one (HIP unit).

Ray Woloszyn

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Area Prep Fire (90L gun not mortar) against the concealed enemy results in a Critical Hit. Even though there are multiple levels I believe the rules allow the CH to hit the actual unit (in this case level zero) in that hex without the need for random selection as I read the rules (last sentence of C3.74). However, if after the CH roll your opponent puts a hip unit on level one of the building in the hope that the critical hit, after random selection, will affect this unit instead. Would this be allowed?
 

klasmalmstrom

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If the shot also hits the hidden unit then you need to roll Random Selection to see which Location gets the CH. Does not matter that the unit was hidden when you took the shot - it was still being made vs all Location in LOS in the hex, and that Level 1 Locations is occupied, even though the unit there is hidden.

C3.74:
"...If using the Area Target Type or OBA, and more than one occupied Location is hit, use Random Selection to determine the occupied Location in which the CH occurs."
 

Binchois

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If the shot also hits the hidden unit then you need to roll Random Selection to see which Location gets the CH. Does not matter that the unit was hidden when you took the shot - it was still being made vs all Location in LOS in the hex, and that Level 1 Locations is occupied, even though the unit there is hidden.

C3.74:
"...If using the Area Target Type or OBA, and more than one occupied Location is hit, use Random Selection to determine the occupied Location in which the CH occurs."
BTW, what happens if - after applying the +2 Case K modifier - the HIP would be hit only with an "improbable hit"? So in Ray's case, the original DR2 causes a CH against the Known enemy or an "improbable hit" against the HIP enemy...

Perhaps the HIP unit is ignored in this situation. But I am inclined to think that the defender would have to say something like "you could have scored an improbable hit" and if that dr is low enough to plausibly hit the HIP-ers, RS for Location is rolled so that it includes the HIP Location. Of course, that would make it possible for no CH to occur at all.

Has there ever been a ruling on this? Am I missing something?
 

Ray Woloszyn

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BTW, what happens if - after applying the +2 Case K modifier - the HIP would be hit only with an "improbable hit"? So in Ray's case, the original DR2 causes a CH against the Known enemy or an "improbable hit" against the HIP enemy...

Perhaps the HIP unit is ignored in this situation. But I am inclined to think that the defender would have to say something like "you could have scored an improbable hit" and if that dr is low enough to plausibly hit the HIP-ers, RS for Location is rolled so that it includes the HIP Location. Of course, that would make it possible for no CH to occur at all.

Has there ever been a ruling on this? Am I missing something?
Good points. The HIP unit would be, of course, be it also and would have to come on board setting up the random selection. I think the improbable hit is handled as you noted thus made making the CH automatic against the concealed target. Actual result was to rubble the building. The HIP unit was an out of the box, hypothetical thought but not as profound as yours! Improbable indeed!
 

klasmalmstrom

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BTW, what happens if - after applying the +2 Case K modifier - the HIP would be hit only with an "improbable hit"? So in Ray's case, the original DR2 causes a CH against the Known enemy or an "improbable hit" against the HIP enemy...
I think you first roll the subsequent dr - if that is a "1" then a CH has been achieved vs multiple Locations, and you roll RS between them.
 

jrv

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I think you first roll the subsequent dr - if that is a "1" then a CH has been achieved vs multiple Locations, and you roll RS between them.
This to me is the most likely answer, but it is possible that the Random Selection is only rolled between Locations that are definitely CH. The improbable hit dr then separately determines whether the improbably hit location is a CH or not. And then, what if multiple locations are improbably hit? Is each one rolled separately, or are all the improbable hit drs made, and Random Selection between all the ones that are CH? It's probably simplest to make the improbable hit drs first, then RS between all CH locations.

JR
 

Ray Woloszyn

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If your opponent asks you to make an improbable hit dr, then he gives away his HIP location, or? Seems a bit unfair but I guess it would be the firer that would insist or rolling such a dr against all improbable locations. At least no sniper can be generated although it might slow the game down as been happening incrementally over the years as players call on every possible chance to gain victory.
 

jrv

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If your opponent asks you to make an improbable hit dr, then he gives away his HIP location, or? Seems a bit unfair but I guess it would be the firer that would insist or rolling such a dr against all improbable locations. At least no sniper can be generated although it might slow the game down as been happening incrementally over the years as players call on every possible chance to gain victory.
I don't think you have to give the exact location away. Just say an improbable hit dr has to be made.

JR
 

Binchois

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This to me is the most likely answer, but it is possible that the Random Selection is only rolled between Locations that are definitely CH. The improbable hit dr then separately determines whether the improbably hit location is a CH or not. And then, what if multiple locations are improbably hit? Is each one rolled separately, or are all the improbable hit drs made, and Random Selection between all the ones that are CH? It's probably simplest to make the improbable hit drs first, then RS between all CH locations.

JR
Agreed that Klas's sequence is most likely (roll for improbable; then RS for every Location subject to CH). But I'm glad I am not alone to consider that the RS might come before the Improbable dr (leaving the possibility - dr 4-6 - that no hit occurs at all).

Really, though, since C3.74 is a sub-paragraph to the CH rules (C3.7), it is probably correct to conclude that the RS DR is only required of Locations that are affected by that CH result...hence that improbable dr would have to come first (and only if it was a "1" would the HIP be selectable by RS).
 

Ray Woloszyn

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Even though you fire at the one unit ("?") on level 0 and assuming there is no other unit on any other levels would you still have to roll random selection for the critical hit thus possibly sparing the real unit the effects of the critical hit? I think C3.74 maintains that the CH is on the one unit showing that prompted the fire in the first place.
 

jrv

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Even though you fire at the one unit ("?") on level 0 and assuming there is no other unit on any other levels would you still have to roll random selection for the critical hit thus possibly sparing the real unit the effects of the critical hit? I think C3.74 maintains that the CH is on the one unit showing that prompted the fire in the first place.
I don't see that C3.74 says that. It says that Random Selection is used when more than one target is in the Location, and that Random Selection is used for OBA/ATT when more than one location is occupied. It doesn't say anything I see about visible vs. HIP units.

JR
 

Ray Woloszyn

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I don't see that C3.74 says that. It says that Random Selection is used when more than one target is in the Location, and that Random Selection is used for OBA/ATT when more than one location is occupied. It doesn't say anything I see about visible vs. HIP units.

JR
Since there is only one occupied location, namely by the unit under the "?" on level zero and no other units are in that hex at other levels, then the CH strikes this unit under the "?" as I read it. I understand that should more than one unit be under the "?", then random selection would be used. I want to be sure that an unoccupied location in the same hex would not involved in any random selection (thus possibly sparing the location containing the "?").
 

klasmalmstrom

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Since there is only one occupied location, namely by the unit under the "?" on level zero and no other units are in that hex at other levels, then the CH strikes this unit under the "?" as I read it. I understand that should more than one unit be under the "?", then random selection would be used. I want to be sure that an unoccupied location in the same hex would not involved in any random selection (thus possibly sparing the location containing the "?").
If indeed there is no unit at Level 1, then the CH strikes the ground level.


But in your post #1 you wrote:
However, if after the CH roll your opponent puts a hip unit on level one of the building in the hope that the critical hit, after random selection, will affect this unit instead. Would this be allowed?
If there was a hidden unit at Level 1 - then the ground level was not the only occupied level. So the opponent would need to let you know that two occupied levels were hit.
 
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