AREA : a small info

[Aaron Cleavin]

while it's a TD's duty add ALL tournament games actually played possibly in block, any friendly game could or could not added by the player at his will, so I see scarce utility for this "double'' option as it could offer a distorted image. But I'm neutral about this extra option if it does not cost time to anyone -except for who self-register the event- and does not harm the genuineness of the competitive table

It would offer a "second image" rather than a distorted one.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

while it's a TD's duty add ALL tournament games actually played possibly in block, any friendly game could or could not added by the player at his will, so I see scarce utility for this "double'' option as it could offer a distorted image. But I'm neutral about this extra option if it does not cost time to anyone -except for who self-register the event- and does not harm the genuineness of the competitive table

As long as any 2 guys can sit together for a game and get a 3rd guy to enter the result as a "TD", I am not sure how genuine or not genuine the competitive table can be.

 

[ecz]

It would offer a "second image" rather than a distorted one.

"second" if all friendly games are reported, "distorted" if for one reason or the other, casually or not, some games are forgotten. But, as I said, I'm really neutral about this "second" option ;-)

 

[Michael R]

Personally, I have no issue if "friendly" games are included in the rating. If a player enters a tournament with a slightly inflated rating due to inferior competition, he will seed high, but that does not give a huge advantage. In my dream world, Bruno will give us a database or spreadsheet with every game he ever included, and we are able to import those games into our replacement system.

 

[Aaron Cleavin]

Personally, I have no issue if "friendly" games are included in the rating. If a player enters a tournament with a slightly inflated rating due to inferior competition, he will seed high, but that does not give a huge advantage. In my dream world, Bruno will give us a database or spreadsheet with every game he ever included, and we are able to import those games into our replacement system.

Just to clarify how I am building this engine, each player will have 2 ratings (And RD Rating Deviation == volatility of results)

1. Will include only Tournie games
2. Will record all game friendly and Tournie entered into the system

It may be that only Tournament directors get to submit results of Tournie games if that is the direction that the community wants to take.

 

[Aaron Cleavin]

Personally, I have no issue if "friendly" games are included in the rating. If a player enters a tournament with a slightly inflated rating due to inferior competition, he will seed high, but that does not give a huge advantage. In my dream world, Bruno will give us a database or spreadsheet with every game he ever included, and we are able to import those games into our replacement system.

Let us not talk of replacement but of next generation, learning from all that is prior/

 

[Mister T]

It is not necessary to report non-competitive games in "AREA" as this is already done in ROAR, which is the appropriate receptacle.

I welcome the segregation between competitive and other games, as the inclusion of other games would distort the ratings. We know that many players play only with their buddies so their ratings would only depend on the strength of the players they regularly encounter. The rating becomes only relevant as more players are met. Plus it's a good way to encourage attendance/participation in ASL events/virtual events.

 

[The Magnus]

As long as any 2 guys can sit together for a game and get a 3rd guy to enter the result as a "TD", I am not sure how genuine or not genuine the competitive table can be.

<Smile On> As nobody has challenged my assertion that I am THE individual on the globe attending the most ASL tournaments, let me be the judge on what is a "real" tournament and what is not. Who else could be more qualified? <Smile Off>.

Seriously, I admire Michael, Aaron and others who - as opposed to myself - are willing to participate in these kind of sandbox fights over the next many years. I am sure that they can pretty easily, and in the fashion of enlightened dictator(s), decide who is "a real TD" and who is "a fake one".

A more serious thought should be given to how to handle the various games at a tournament. Often there is (1) the main Tournament itself, (2) various Minis and (3) Friendly games. Two weeks ago I attended a tournament in Blackpool, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and there ALL games were registered and included in the local Crusaders ASL Ladder - and maybe also reported to Bruno. Not that this UKoGBaNI ladder is relevant in the rest of the world, fact remains that the future AREA/APCR caretaker must decide on what is included in the "competitive" portion of the rating. In particular - are the Mini's held separate from any Main Tournament part of the tournament or not? Personally, I can have it either way, but it must be consistent.

 

[hongkongwargamer]

<Smile On> As nobody has challenged my assertion that I am THE individual on the globe attending the most ASL tournaments, let me be the judge on what is a "real" tournament and what is not. Who else could be more qualified? <Smile Off>.

Seriously, I admire Michael, Aaron and others who - as opposed to myself - are willing to participate in these kind of sandbox fights over the next many years. I am sure that they can pretty easily, and in the fashion of enlightened dictator(s), decide who is "a real TD" and who is "a fake one".

A more serious thought should be given to how to handle the various games at a tournament. Often there is (1) the main Tournament itself, (2) various Minis and (3) Friendly games. Two weeks ago I attended a tournament in Blackpool, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and there ALL games were registered and included in the local Crusaders ASL Ladder - and maybe also reported to Bruno. Not that this UKoGBaNI ladder is relevant in the rest of the world, fact remains that the future AREA/APCR caretaker must decide on what is included in the "competitive" portion of the rating. In particular - are the Mini's held separate from any Main Tournament part of the tournament or not? Personally, I can have it either way, but it must be consistent.

Dude, I don’t see you in any of our tournaments in Asia in the last 6 years. .

Isn’t it time that you sign up for the Malaya Madmen 2019?

Otherwise I will always wonder about your assertion.

Come on - prove me wrong.

 

[Aaron Cleavin]

Core Engine is now complete with calculations made on 1300 games in sub 30s times on PostGreSQL on a 4 year old i7.
Both Friendly (All games) + Tournament games only calculations are made, and the extent to which these are different for some players is interesting indeed.

I will look to get ~10k games into the system, while I and a collaborator will start working on the Web interfaces, security and a cloud migration.
Strongly believe will have a product worth showing for Malaya Madmen in Singapore in late July.

If people are interested and can sent Spreadheeets/CSV's of
GameDate, Scenario code, Attacking Player, Defending Player, W/L (Foe Attacker), Game Type (T/F) (Tournament Friendly)

Name should be First name Space last name (Special characters and double barreled names are supported)
I will likely be able to get games in and processed (Note I do look carefully to see the scenario is not already submitted by other side)
and a rating report emailed your way

 

[The Magnus]

Dude, I don’t see you in any of our tournaments in Asia in the last 6 years. .

Isn’t it time that you sign up for the Malaya Madmen 2019?

Otherwise I will always wonder about your assertion.

Come on - prove me wrong.

Hehe - no, no Asian tournaments under my belt yet and none planned, despite Aaron's valiant efforts to get me over there. I look forward seeing you at some EUR/east-US event.

 

[ecz]

<Smile On>
A more serious thought should be given to how to handle the various games at a tournament. Often there is (1) the main Tournament itself, (2) various Minis and (3) Friendly games. Two weeks ago I attended a tournament in Blackpool, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and there ALL games were registered and included in the local Crusaders ASL Ladder - and maybe also reported to Bruno. Not that this UKoGBaNI ladder is relevant in the rest of the world, fact remains that the future AREA/APCR caretaker must decide on what is included in the "competitive" portion of the rating. In particular - are the Mini's held separate from any Main Tournament part of the tournament or not? Personally, I can have it either way, but it must be consistent.

Magnus, this is a golden question that only the TD can answer.

In no case it's possible decide in advance what is competitive and what is not when there is a event with more partecipants. It's a TD's duty decide what send to AREA/APCR and what not.
It's the reason why single players should never have free access to self report competitive games unless so instructed by the too busy/lazy or whatever TD.

I have already said and confirm now that it is NOT a matter of hierarchy (we all are equal and honest at the same highest level ) but only the TDs can assume this decision. After all they are their Minis, and who can better decide if they are serious enough in a ideal competitive scale?

Not countig the fact that a single subject authorized to insert - send results in the system makes the whole process simpler and avoids unwanted duplications /errors/omissions

 

[Ganjulama]

Magnus, this is a golden question that only the TD can answer.

We had to wrestle with this question for the NC Bitter Ender. We run an single elimination main event and single elimination minis. We decided only competitive games would be reported. If a player got knocked out any open game after was not reported.

 

[Justiciar]

We had to wrestle with this question for the NC Bitter Ender. We run an single elimination main event and single elimination minis. We decided only competitive games would be reported. If a player got knocked out any open game after was not reported.

That is your right as TD.

But if you think to ASLOK and WO, at which many of us, myself included, have non-mini wins and losses recorded, as well as mini wins and losses recorded....and for me no GROFAZ play...but I have come 3rd and 4th at WO and have those wins and losses are in....I do not see how you exclude games outside the "main event/s" of the tourney....

Also just from a personal view point you all are WAAYYY over doing this, and spoiling it, and the system for those that cannot attend the tourney scene on anywhere near a regular bases such as to have a chance at 'adjusting' ones rating. Why b/c you get KOed in the first round....1 round later John Doe the number 3 seed does too...but you get a friendly with John, he is a nice guy, and lo and behold you beat him...you were seeded 23rd. Well you win means FU UMLAUT CK all.

IMHO, any game at a tourney should count for the AREA rating. Games outside of tourney, I am whatever the group think wants...I can go either way. I am good with does not count. And if I read Aaron's mails right his system will show friendlies and a record, but not adjust your AREA for those. Nice.

But to only count a game at which a trophy (whatever size GROFAZ, mini) is at stake for AREA is not the best way to do this. You attend a tourney you got knocked out in round 1, must of the other guys who are at a 16-32 enrolled tournament will get knocked out, that you played them in a QUOTE FRIENDLY UNQUOTE game 8 house later, means what the both of you suddenly lost your competitive nature, that game you had was not as hard fought. <cough> BS <cough>.

Do not turn AREA into an elitist roster solely b/c you can attend more tourneys than some one else.

 

[Paul John]

I am inclined to agree that any game at a tourney would hopefully count, but if directors have some reason to not think that should be the case, then so it goes. I just wonder what is the point of going all the way to a tournament to play 'non-competitive games'. That sounds a bit wrong as they are always fun, but my point would be that I would hope the directors make it so that everyone is playing with that tournament edge all the way through. I certainly never expect to win, but it is a real incentive for me to make the trip to have my feet held to the fire a little more than usual. Certainly those are the rules mistakes I remember!
But again, I am glad folks are putting energy into this and I can't complain.
These ratings will be imprecise regardless of the mechanism after all.

 

[zgrose]

One aspect that I think is being overlooked in the AREA (or AREA-esque) system is the right there in the old AREA article.

"Scoring is simple. Players agree to play a rated game, ... and at the conclusion the loser signs the winner's Victory Slip..."

It seems like a lot of people are saying that TDs should enter all results regardless and players should be able to enter their results regardless. That's not the basis for AREA as I understand it. Nor is it really the basis for any matchmaking system that I've played in.

Mutual consent is a pretty strong requirement for any competitive ranking system. (IMO YMMV)

 

[Aaron Cleavin]

At the moment I calculate two ratings per player one is friendly and includes all (including Tournament) games reported. While the Tournament ranking includes all game reported as Tournament games only.

My figuring is this makes things easy, if two people can't agree that something is or isn't a tournie game then there is little hope for the world ;-)

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Hey - look at this chat: On one hand we have people saying TDs are glorious bastions of integrity and them alone can be trusted with game results. One the other hand we have people saying TDs too bleed like the rest of us.

Hey who knows? I might decide to pull all the games I played with newbies and call them all “tourney” games.

At the moment I calculate two ratings per player one is friendly and includes all (including Tournament) games reported. While the Tournament ranking includes all game reported as Tournament games only.

My figuring is this makes things easy, if two people can't agree that something is or isn't a tournie game then there is little hope for the world ;-)

 

[ecz]

One aspect that I think is being overlooked in the AREA (or AREA-esque) system is the right there in the old AREA article.

"Scoring is simple. Players agree to play a rated game, ... and at the conclusion the loser signs the winner's Victory Slip..."

It seems like a lot of people are saying that TDs should enter all results regardless and players should be able to enter their results regardless. That's not the basis for AREA as I understand it. Nor is it really the basis for any matchmaking system that I've played in.

Mutual consent is a pretty strong requirement for any competitive ranking system. (IMO YMMV)

in fact that it's the old philosophy of A.R.E.A. in the past times.

Now any TD should state in advance that tournament games will be reported to AREA/APCR.
At least this is what any TD should write in the rules (IMO)

but nothing wrong if a non competitive ladder exists under the old philosopy, like the now dead Mark Humpries ladder

 

[Ganjulama]

That is your right as TD.

The rationale for the decision was related to competitive vs. non-competitive game. The reason was practical-->we got sick of trying to get players to complete PISS sheets. We had a remarkable level of non-compliance and we got sick of acting like parents nagging players for their homework. Also, when we did get them collected we had to deal with trying to interpret some REALLY bad hand writing.

Since we kept track of all games in the brackets it was just natural to report them--we had the players, sides, balance (if any), and scenario name.