AREA : a small info

von Marwitz

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No you are missing the vital point. "TD's are not more special" Anybody can submit a result from a sanctioned tournament. The person called "TD" is NOT the only qualified candidate to submit such a result. That TD's are special for running the tournament, and making rules calls, and matching people up, and they myriad of other things they do, yes they are. But NOT special as regards submitting results.
IMHO not Enrico is missing the vital point but you are:

I think that it is not Enrico's point to say that TD's are more special in the way of forming some special elite privileged persons.

I believe that Enricos point is that it does make perfect sense for the TD's (only) to report tournament-game results as otherwise this will lead to potentially widespread chaos: Double reported games, names spelled wrong, information provided incomplete etc. That these factors mirror reality is evidenced by the TD's having a tough time collecting this data DESPITE running the affair and having more information (through booking / payment for the event) than the average attendant, and organizing the pairings. What would happen if anyone could (or not) enter something is quite evident to me.

von Marwitz
 

Justiciar

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IMHO not Enrico is missing the vital point but you are:

I think that it is not Enrico's point to say that TD's are more special in the way of forming some special elite privileged persons.

I believe that Enricos point is that it does make perfect sense for the TD's (only) to report tournament-game results as otherwise this will lead to potentially widespread chaos: Double reported games, names spelled wrong, information provided incomplete etc. That these factors mirror reality is evidenced by the TD's having a tough time collecting this data DESPITE running the affair and having more information (through booking / payment for the event) than the average attendant, and organizing the pairings. What would happen if anyone could (or not) enter something is quite evident to me.

von Marwitz
Disagree in full. If the admin or admin system can't detecting a double report...well that is just poor. Names can't be misspelled once the system logs that name...just the way ROAR gets or does not get who you are talking about or what scenario you are talking about. Incomplete data "falling top report a scenario name" is a technical problem which experts like Aaron likely handle with "failed to record your game b/c scenario name invalid". Means do four fucking home work and get the name right...just like the TD has to do. Go around again Red Rider, you are babe off in the pattern.

That TD have a tough time collect data...might well mean the player is lazy right then and there on the tourney...but when he gets home rest and recovers he might well be a bright little chipmunk. Go around again Red Rider you are wave in the pattern...

You have neither been to nor experience the "chaos" used loosely of ASLOk or WO both the most important ASL events on the planet...

The TD is NOT the soul channel.

Furthermore, it seems to me you missed that Enrico is in the only seeded vs seeded as a AREA chit, best I see his position. He too fails to grasp an event with 100+ ASLers (i.e. ASLOk and WO) and that this might well be some one's best chance of an AREA chits...so if they do in 4 years time make the odd "seeded" tourney they have something other than you only get a C rating b/c "we don't know you" whereas that player might well have 25+ ASLOK/WO games...

Once again it is an elitist approach that only TDs can input the data. Perry is not going to input 100 PIS sheets. Bret handed it off to some else...poor Bruno getting that every October. What a shit month. If attendees to these events could input their own well hey presto better data....right?

[Edit: I have never doubled reported a ROAR game. My OPFOR and I agree, who will report this. X will fine. Case closed. X fails to report after Z time...I remind X "reminder post up." "Yes sorry will do...]

So maybe the compromise is...ASLOK / WO results (any match) are submitted by attendees, at any other event they are reported to the TD who submits ( a sub-text element Enrico also has trouble with as "purist" he only sees and understand tourney in a very formal sense...lacks a grasp of ASLOK and WO and 100+ guys...imagine that with a "TD" badge on? I want an AREA chit game, I am not in the GROFAZ, I am not in a mini, and I am late for the World Cup...show me the "AREA chit" open play bracket. NOT HAPPENING!).

[Edit: A further sub-element is if you deny AREA chit to open play to ASLOK and WO, well you tarnish the reputation and standing of the two oldest and most recognized, and heavily attended ASL events ever. And tarnish and cheapen the effort by players who fly in from all over the world to attend these events. Good one that...right.]
 
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Aaron Cleavin

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I Have removed about 50 duplicate names over the last few days and now have about 1950 ASL player names and Nationalizes, refinement will probably remove 50-100 as casual incomplete and change the nationality of 50-100 others whom I made a poor grues of nationalities on.

I will distribute this task to willing volunteers over the next few days
 

von Marwitz

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Disagree in full. If the admin or admin system can't detecting a double report...well that is just poor. Names can't be misspelled once the system logs that name...just the way ROAR gets or does not get who you are talking about or what scenario you are talking about. Incomplete data "falling top report a scenario name" is a technical problem which experts like Aaron likely handle with "failed to record your game b/c scenario name invalid". Means do four fucking home work and get the name right...just like the TD has to do. Go around again Red Rider, you are babe off in the pattern.
Practice shows, that players are very often not up to their "homework" or quite often not even consider it their "homework" at all to do some reporting. And it is not the "homework" of a TD to sort out inconsistencies, errors, failures of reporting, incomplete reportings, double reportings of players etc that these report as they trickle in (or not) after a tournament and then feed them bit by bit to AREA.

And certainly names can be misspelled and are misspelled - especially ROAR is a prime example for that.

Just to give you one example that is exemplary (one of my regular opponents):

Koch, Michael
Koch, michael
Koch II, Michael

Further examples that I have encountered (I'll stick to "Koch" for the sake of the example):

Koch, M.
Koch, Unknown
Koch, Paddy
Unknown, Michael

And this does not even include typos.

This is what ROAR gets. Which you ironically seem to cite as a functioning example.

This is what AREA would get if anyone could enter stuff. This is what TDs get when they (or a volunteer) takes the troubles to collect slips of paper during a tournament, where he can still relatively easily collect the missing bits of data due to the information about the participants, pairings, and scenarios he has. Absolutely no one wants and can be burdened to make such corrections after a tournament for entries by individual players.

It does not even end here. AFAIK, Bruno has even made manual corrections to information provided to him by TDs. That is to data that has already had one prior run of getting the information together and to sort our errors.

So much for getting the correct information.


Now on to ASLOK and WO.

Of course, these two are very important events, and at least ASLOK is the most important event during the ASL-year. Nevertheless, these do not serve as a good example for the usual ASL-tournament.

By far the most tournaments will have something between 20 and 50 participants, with 50 being safely counted among the "bigger" events.

So while Bret has more than enough to do running the show at ASLOK without collecting any slips of paper with reported games, TD's have much better opportunity and chances to get this done at the average tournament. For a special event such as ASLOK, some special routine can be established as it has in the past.

von Marwitz
 

jrv

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Practice shows, that players are very often not up to their "homework" or quite often not even consider it their "homework" at all to do some reporting. And it is not the "homework" of a TD to sort out inconsistencies, errors, failures of reporting, incomplete reportings, double reportings of players etc that these report as they trickle in (or not) after a tournament and then feed them bit by bit to AREA.

And certainly names can be misspelled and are misspelled - especially ROAR is a prime example for that.

Just to give you one example that is exemplary (one of my regular opponents):

Koch, Michael
Koch, michael
Koch II, Michael

Further examples that I have encountered (I'll stick to "Koch" for the sake of the example):

Koch, M.
Koch, Unknown
Koch, Paddy
Unknown, Michael

And this does not even include typos.

This is what ROAR gets. Which you ironically seem to cite as a functioning example.
ROAR is not a player rating system. ROAR is interested in scenarios, not players. You cannot see whether player x is "better" than player y in ROAR. Because of this the sort of problems you identify aren't as important for ROAR. If I play and enter a playing against "Koch, Michael" for "Blazin' Chariots" and you play and enter a playing against "Koch, michael" also for "Blazin' Chariots" (two completely separate playings that actually happened), two playings enter ROAR for "Blazin' Chariots," and its record is correct even if the two Michael Koch accounts represent playings by the same player. That is not to say that ROAR does not allow users to enter the same playing twice. If I enter the playing and list my opponent as "Unknown" and Michael Koch enters the playing and lists his opponent as "Unknown," there's no way to know that the two entries represent the same playing. In most cases players don't use "Unknown" and only one of the two players will have a doppelgänger account. In theory if both players report the playing, the player without the doppelgänger should notice that the playing has been added twice (by him against the doppelgänger and by his opponent using his "real" account), and the problem should eventually sort itself out when the doppelgänger playing is deleted.

Note that ROAR can merge accounts when requested. It isn't done as matter of course because there can be (and have been) players with the same name. Fortunately that is rare. And for what ROAR reports on, if a playing is reported against the "wrong" player it doesn't matter.

JR
 

von Marwitz

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ROAR is not a player rating system. ROAR is interested in scenarios, not players.
I know, JR. ;)

I just took up ROAR as its mechanisms were taken as a functioning example by Justiciar for not having double accounts, and the stuff I gave as an example.

Basically, what matters is this: BS in, BS out.

So no matter if you feed AREA, ROAR or really any interface (including good old paper slips) with bad data, you will have it 'in the system'.
The best safeguard to avoid this is to ensure that no BS gets in.

IMHO if anyone can enter any game at anytime, then the chances of getting BS in are multipled compared to if only the TD in charge of the tournament in question does it.

The whole thing is not about some "privileged" or "elite" people having the exclusive right to do so but about ensuring the best integrity of data getting into the system.

von Marwitz
 

dlazov

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The whole thing is not about some "privileged" or "elite" people having the exclusive right to do so but about ensuring the best integrity of data getting into the system.
But it does in fact sound like an elitist privileged statement. It’s like saying your average ASL player is a smuck and an idiot and only the glorified golden TD priest is worthy to enter the data.

At least that is how it sounds and comes across.
 

Justiciar

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I bow out of this thread. I stated my case, have more likes than I can thank folks for. And* had the chance to speak with Gary Bartlett in person today at an ASL event, who silently is trying to help AREA along on the software side among others, and he agrees with my point on ASLOK/WO and how to get data to the "ASL-borg collective." That will have to suffice for me.

Thank you for the frank discussion.

Over and out.
 
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Eagle4ty

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I bow out of this thread. I stated my case, have more likes than I can thank folks for. And* had the chance to speak with Gary Bartlett in person today at an ASL event, who silently is trying to help AREA along on the software side among others, and he agrees with my point on ASLOK/WO and how to get data to the "ASL-borg collective." That will have to suffice for me.

Thank you for the frank discussion.

Over and out.
Seems as if this is the one instance where "OVER" and "OUT" can be used in the same message. "OVER meaning I'm turning the conversation between us over to you; "OUT" meaning I'm done with this conversation and will quit listening. In MIL-SPEAK the two are never to be used together as they don't make any sense.
 

hongkongwargamer

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Seems as if this is the one instance where "OVER" and "OUT" can be used in the same message. "OVER meaning I'm turning the conversation between us over to you; "OUT" meaning I'm done with this conversation and will quit listening. In MIL-SPEAK the two are never to be used together as they don't make any sense.
Teenagers do that all the time ..
 

Eagle4ty

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Teenagers do that all the time ..
:LOL: That one always made me cringe every time I heard it in a war flick. The greatest misuse was in the "Green Berets" where "The Duke" was supposed to represent the cream of the crop of U.S. Army Special Forces and making a guffaw that would have gotten a private's butt dropped for 20 if he had said that.:eek:
 

Yuri0352

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:LOL: That one always made me cringe every time I heard it in a war flick. The greatest misuse was in the "Green Berets" where "The Duke" was supposed to represent the cream of the crop of U.S. Army Special Forces and making a guffaw that would have gotten a private's butt dropped for 20 if he had said that.:eek:
Only one of the many cringe-inducing moments within 'The Green Berets'.
 

bendizoid

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Seems as if this is the one instance where "OVER" and "OUT" can be used in the same message. "OVER meaning I'm turning the conversation between us over to you; "OUT" meaning I'm done with this conversation and will quit listening. In MIL-SPEAK the two are never to be used together as they don't make any sense.
Rodger Wilco Over and Out
 
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