AREA : a small info

Justiciar

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I am afraid, JR, that ship has sailed loooong ago:

View attachment 7830

Most of the unwashed masses are not aware that the above, crafted in the 4th millenium B.C., is the representation of an unpunched German 5-4-8 Platoon along with a 9-1 Leader and a healthy smattering of SW as part of a then very futuristic war game.

von Marwitz
You forgot to mention the lively debate of the period though bone vs. ivory dice.
 

Aaron Cleavin

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I wrote a core db and calc engine in PostGreSQL today, intend to check the GLIKO algorithmic accuracy tommorow. And may begin to skin it next weekend, bulk (.CSV) loading by admin and GUI loading by players to be supported
 
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synicbast

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and at ASLOK the only games that count for AREA are the World cup games (which are scrupulously vetted by everyone involved naturally), the Mini-tournaments and the Grofaz Games - so they are verified by the TD as progress continues.
 

Jacometti

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I wrote a core db and calc engine in PostGreSQL today, intend to check the GLIKO algorithmic accuracy tommorow. And may begin to skin it next weekend, bulk (.CSV) loading by admin and GUI loading by players to be supported
I have no idea what you are communicating, but it seems important.
 

ecz

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I am building a new engine to compute ASL ratings based on the GLICKO system which builds upon and improves the original ELO methodology
does this mean that past games do not count anymore because recorderd under another 'obsolete' metholodogy? or are they recalculated with the new system? or do you think we'll have a table made with two different systems at once, partially the old ELO partially with new GLICKO?
please explain
 

Justiciar

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Hum, maybe you should read more carefully... I said Bret sent the reports to Bruno...
You said up stream: "As a matter of fact, Bret did sent to Bruno the ASLOK games. Yes. I know as I carried back to Bret some of these year reports."

You handled reports. That is my point...security breach as only TD should deal with reports.
 

Aaron Cleavin

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does this mean that past games do not count anymore because recorderd under another 'obsolete' metholodogy? or are they recalculated with the new system? or do you think we'll have a table made with two different systems at once, partially the old ELO partially with new GLICKO?
please explain

Can be recomputed at any point, all calc done earliest game to latest: nothing is obsolete

What the calculation does is compute changes as a block rather than game bty game, so at the end of each (2 month period) a new r (Rating) and RD (rating Deviation, basically Volatility) are computed for every player.

The nice thing about this is you have a rating history in 2 month increments available, and as you find and add older games that weren't included they will automatically be included at the next recompute.
It is still possible to do an on the fly recompute during a 2 month period should this be needed.

I am building a facility to process CSV's of personal histories from ROAR (or Area) as well.

Decisions about computing tournie vs friendly ratings also possible, so one could have a set of All games played rankings and one of tournie only games.

The all games played will weight games as 1 friendly , 2 = tournie, 3 = Tuornie final in making computations.
The tournie ranking will included tournie and tournie final games (weight equally).

I hope to have a decent version to release at Malaya Madness in late July. Will share updates as they are made.
 

hongkongwargamer

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Can be recomputed at any point, all calc done earliest game to latest: nothing is obsolete

What the calculation does is compute changes as a block rather than game bty game, so at the end of each (2 month period) a new r (Rating) and RD (rating Deviation, basically Volatility) are computed for every player.

The nice thing about this is you have a rating history in 2 month increments available, and as you find and add older games that weren't included they will automatically be included at the next recompute.
It is still possible to do an on the fly recompute during a 2 month period should this be needed.

I am building a facility to process CSV's of personal histories from ROAR (or Area) as well.

Decisions about computing tournie vs friendly ratings also possible, so one could have a set of All games played rankings and one of tournie only games.

The all games played will weight games as 1 friendly , 2 = tournie, 3 = Tuornie final in making computations.
The tournie ranking will included tournie and tournie final games (weight equally).

I hope to have a decent version to release at Malaya Madness in late July. Will share updates as they are made.
REGISTER FOR MALAYA MADMEN - ALL PARTICIPANTS GET THE FIRST SHOT AT SEEDING THIS NEW ENGINE!!

(Country Champs .. HELLO :D :D)

 

The Magnus

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As a frequent - if not THE most frequent - tournament participant, I certainly appreciate the existence of the AREA rating and its use for seeding purposes. From that perspective I support each and every point made by Enrico (esz) in this thread. Moreover, I DO put TD's higher on the totem pole than your individual player
(A) because most of them depend on AREA being correct and thus they are part of a symbiotic network; and
(B) because they due to their willingness to spend all the time needed to organize a tournament IMHO are more likely to also spend the time necessary for quality assurance of the AREA input data.

I am in principle neutral on who takes over the task of running AREA. However, I will personally vouch for Michael Rodgers and his team. Michael would not let the community down in this important task, and his long history of voluntarism with the Canadian ASL community indicates that he is not the one quitting after a year or two.

As for those who do not see the need for AREA, I do not find their negative tirades particularly constructive. Nor endearing. Personally, I see no need for automatic feeding devices for small animals, nor for left-handed golf clubs, but I would not dis the producers or users of such products just because of that. Live and let live.
 
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hongkongwargamer

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As a frequent - if not THE most frequent - tournament participant, I certainly appreciate the existence of the AREA rating and its use for seeding purposes. From that perspective I support each and every point made by Enrico (esz) in this thread. Moreover, I DO put TD's higher on the totem pole than your individual player
(A) because most of them depend on AREA being correct and thus they are part of a symbiotic network; and
(B) because they due to their willingness to spend all the time needed to organize a tournament IMHO are more likely to also spend the time necessary for quality assurance of the AREA input data.

I am in principle neutral on who takes over the task of running AREA. However, I will personally vouch for Michael Rodgers and his team. Michael would not let the community down in this important task, and his long history of voluntarism with the Canadian ASL community indicates that he is not the one quitting after a year or two.

As for those who do not see the need for AREA, I do not find their negative tirades particularly constructive. Nor endearing. Personally, I see no need for automatic feeding devices for small animals, nor for left-handed golf clubs, but I would not dis the producers or users of such products just because of that. Live and let live.
That's his happy voice and left handed golf clubs are needed. :p

Now - Michael Rodger's is a great (and a very patient) opponent of mine and he definitely has a long and illustrious record with CASLO (Ortona! Ortona! Ortona!). NOTHING against the man and I would definitely support his endeavour.

But .. most of us in this hobby are volunteers as well, I would argue given the amount of work that goes into each ASL product, even publishers should be considered volunteers.

Since Aaron has already spun into action and prototyped an AREA calc engine, we should give the man a chance.

Rgds Jack
 
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The Magnus

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Since Aaron has already spun into action and prototyped an AREA calc engine, we should give the man a chance.

Rgds Jack
I know Aaron well, also a man of honor and integrity. I have to admit, though, that I read his post as a generous offer to develop a new algorithm and AREA engine, not as an offer to run the whole operation (I might be biased, but Michael is just as myself retired, and thus has more time on his hands than the also professionally ambitious Aaron. I am sure Aaron can revamp the engine so that much less work is involved from the side of its operator, but much work will remain, not the least data error corrections and discussions/iterations regarding all kinds of matters/opinions. I would never take the job 🆒 ).

To make it clear, I would support Aaron as much as I would Michael, though it is not really my call :) .
 

DougRim

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Several of us involved in the VASL program group have talked about moving AREA over to the VASL.info site (not as part of the VASL module but as an add on to the website).

The principle benefits would be:

a) to fit it into an on-going structure, open to all, and thereby increase its likelihood of being maintained
b) an opportunity to refresh the site using the tools and expertise available to the VASL group

One of the key goals would be to enable TD's to upload results directly to the database and thereby reduce administrative workload.

I have emailed Bruno about this and his first response was quite positive. Hopefully we can get a look under the hood at AREA fairly soon and then begin to map out a migration strategy.

I can't say for sure that this will proceed at this point, but I am personally willing to work on it.

Bruno and those who came before him have done a great job with AREA and, as others have said, we thank them for it. The commitment is a lot for just one person. Hopefully we can find a way to move it to a more collective model, like the rest of the VASL site and tools.

If anyone else is interested in being involved, please let me know. Many hands make short work.

Doug
 

Aaron Cleavin

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Several of us involved in the VASL program group have talked about moving AREA over to the VASL.info site (not as part of the VASL module but as an add on to the website).

The principle benefits would be:

a) to fit it into an on-going structure, open to all, and thereby increase its likelihood of being maintained
b) an opportunity to refresh the site using the tools and expertise available to the VASL group

One of the key goals would be to enable TD's to upload results directly to the database and thereby reduce administrative workload.

I have emailed Bruno about this and his first response was quite positive. Hopefully we can get a look under the hood at AREA fairly soon and then begin to map out a migration strategy.

I can't say for sure that this will proceed at this point, but I am personally willing to work on it.

Bruno and those who came before him have done a great job with AREA and, as others have said, we thank them for it. The commitment is a lot for just one person. Hopefully we can find a way to move it to a more collective model, like the rest of the VASL site and tools.

If anyone else is interested in being involved, please let me know. Many hands make short work.

Doug
What I am putting together will be able to be used fairly readily by anyone and will be flexible enough (and clean) so that a lot of decisions can be made later.
The Db and Calc Engine are in PostGreSQL and should be finished within a few weeks (Cleaning the sample data is the huge effort right now but almost done)
 

Cult.44

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FWIW, I favor a more community based system that doesn't rely too much on one individual to maintain. I'm inclined to want to keep the data to tournament games (although there's the question of what constitutes a tournament), so going through TDs or those acting for TDs seems reasonable.
 
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Blachorn

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Humm.... why not just roll it into the actual AREA site that Glenn maintains?

Solves all the problems listed as well as allowing players who do not attend tournaments often or not at all to be part of the community?

The site covers all sorts of games and already has a section for ASL - in fact I believe it actually the AREA system came out of AH back in the day.
 

ecz

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Solves all the problems listed as well as allowing players who do not attend tournaments often or not at all to be part of the community?
uhm... not sure this is useful

AREA for ASL has the only intent to rank players attending tournaments using verified data of their competitive playings.

I'm a tennis player that do not attend tournaments at all, and I do not ask to be part of the ATP community and have an official ranking
 

Blachorn

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uhm... not sure this is useful

AREA for ASL has the only intent to rank players attending tournaments using verified data of their competitive playings.

I'm a tennis player that do not attend tournaments at all, and I do not ask to be part of the ATP community and have an official ranking
Ahh.... but the difference is one is a sport with major dollars involved and ASL is more for enjoyment.

Have you looked at the actual AREA site by any chance?

Has a ton of involvement in various games, used for tournaments at WBC etc..

To me the more exposure we have to the gaming community at large the more positive for all of us.

Most people think of that site when the topic of AREA comes up simply because it is the one most used by gamers, and traces it's roots all the way back to the actual creation of AREA by AH.
 

ecz

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Ahh.... but the difference is one is a sport with major dollars involved and ASL is more for enjoyment.

Have you looked at the actual AREA site by any chance?

Has a ton of involvement in various games, used for tournaments at WBC etc..

To me the more exposure we have to the gaming community at large the more positive for all of us.

Most people think of that site when the topic of AREA comes up simply because it is the one most used by gamers, and traces it's roots all the way back to the actual creation of AREA by AH.
no, never seen. Is there a direct link to this site? please share if possible.

I cannot speak for others but I suspect that, for example, the old ladder site held by Mark Humphries (see the thread Global ASL Ladder Challenges & Discussion ) is not useful to rate anything and no TD would use it for any purpose. Certainly I won't. It's not a matter of dollars, it has more to do with the fact that a ranking where anyone can freely decide his opponents for enjoyment including his friendly games with any kind of player, while is a nice thing in general, it's the worst thing possible if we search an effective tool capable to select who tends to be a better player.
 
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