AREA : a small info

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Throughout the 10 years Hennie and I ran the Arnhem tournament we used AREA for matching opponents. We liked and appreciated it a lot.
While doing so we developed (together with Bruno) an Excel sheet to record the scenarios played at the tournament which Bruno could import into ROAR. This way we were able to send the tournament results to Bruno the same day the tournament ended.
 

von Marwitz

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While doing so we developed (together with Bruno) an Excel sheet to record the scenarios played at the tournament which Bruno could import into ROAR. This way we were able to send the tournament results to Bruno the same day the tournament ended.
And now, what if there were a webinterface that did the same thing?
Either into an Excel spradsheet to be checked before being imported into AREA. Or to import the data into AREA directly from the Webinterface?

von Marwitz
 

Ganjulama

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Throughout the 10 years Hennie and I ran the Arnhem tournament we used AREA for matching opponents. We liked and appreciated it a lot.
Same with the NC Bitter Ender. I found AREA to be an valuable tool to seed the tournament, and pretty damn accurate as well.
 

ecz

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It is not just "reported by TDs". I have self-reported my playings from WOs and ASLOKs over the years. (...)
So I hope going forward whoever takes over likewise accepts self-reports of this kind, perhaps only from these two extremely large tourneys if need be.
this is a point where I would stimulate a reasoning.

If anyone (not just the TD) is admitted to send results and ask officially for their record in AREA I see several possible problems:

1) the same result could be recorded two times or three times if both players and the TD -in different times- ask to record the same result.
It could be not that obvious that the game is the same, so mistakes are possible, the AREA keeper must check carefully that any request is unique, and this calls more extra unnecessary work for him.

2) fragmentatation causes uncertainty. Why Zed's games are already on AREA and my games not? perhaps the TD did not send the results and Zed simply contacted AREA personally? should I wait or ask the TD? or the AREA keeper? in any case more emails are sent, traffic increases and, again, mistakes are possible.

3) one coud be very prompt and careful when he finish 4/1 his excellent tournament , and the same day send his results to AREA. Will the same guy so quick if his tournament record is a poor 1/4? is this double standard something acceptable and useful for AREA although quite legal and formally not incorrect?

4) if for the same tournament the AREA keeper receives requests from 50-60 different players ( in VASLeague 2018 they were 143) because the TD is sleeping or simply forgot to say the players he will send the results, the AREA keeper must face an overwhelming wave of email totally unnecessary. Besides if two results of the same game are in apparent conflict (mistakes happens) what the AREA keeper should do? ask to both a clarification? search the TD (if he's not sleeping) ? ignore the second request? A lot of time and efforts spent and someone is always unhappy.

5) everyone can decide a different standard to record scenario, sides, results, date, tournament name, making more difficult and long the process to decript data, it could become a nightmare on a long run.

6) there are a lot of tournaments around the world, and quality/seriousness can vary. They are constantly increasing in number (a good thing). But when a tournament is serious enough to deserve AREA treatment? I think that the improptu tournament at Zed's, in 4th street at Lincoln (NE) on Thursday night, with six attendees (sometime seven when Charlie is not too drunk) should not count. But what the AREA keeper can know about this unknown tournament? has he the authority to eventually say "NO" ? Is useful for our AREA purposes that such a results are included? I think only the TD can decide if a tournament is serious enough. AREA keeper should give a few guidelines even so.

7) this take responsibility away from the TDs. It's a duty of the TD record results, set disputes, decide which games have been really played, and send results to AREA. This is a guarantee for all players attending the event. If a player want his results on AREA he must send an email to the TD awaking him and asking he transmit to AREA the records, not an email to AREA to record by himself just what strictly interests him.

If a TD is "lazy" one player can ask him the permission to send at his place ALL results of the tournament, this is ok.

A partial record is something that is true only partially by definition, and in any ranking, any partial update is a bad per se.
 

ecz

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what I would do as AREA kepeer is:

  • give a few guidelines to the TDs about a standard way to send results in a standard format specifying scenario names, sides, result and date of the tournament
  • explain the requisite a tournament must have to be included in AREA (number of partecipants, publicity, notoriety)
  • close the door at any request not coming from a known TD of a known tournament
what I would do as player interested to appear in AREA is:
  • partecipate to tournaments where the TD has stated he will send results to AREA and results are recorded in a site/forum
  • ask the TD to send results to AREA ASAP
  • if the TD forget to send results ask the TD to send results at his place
what I would do as TD (actually what I do as VASLeague TD) is:

  • say in advance in the tournament rules that I'll send results to AREA
  • carefully record the results in the tournament site in a clear format including all basic infos
  • send to AREA the PDFs ASAP
 

Justiciar

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ECZ,

You will never*** get Perry to send in WO reports. Period. There go something like 80+ ASLers chances, and something on the order of 400+ games.

You will never*** get Bret to send ASLOK reports. There go what 100+ ASLers chances, and something over 500+ games.

For these two very special ASL events, which are on a scale well above any other tournament for a TD to run and organize and officiate, you or the new keeper must allow self reporting. In a format which you / keeper can have a bureaucratic form for.

Otherwise AREA is as useless as Bruce Probst is pointing out.
 

zgrose

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Was there something other than <name>-<name> 1-0 to report? I may be seeing the database soon enough anyway. The extra bits shouldn’t affect a ranking system. Guess I’ll wait and see.
 

esprcorn

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Aren't we living in an era where developing a web interface that tourney directors can use to upload results to be automatically incorporated into the database would be rather trivial?

... says the guy who can't code his way out of a sock ...
 

jrv

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Aren't we living in an era where developing a web interface that tourney directors can use to upload results to be automatically incorporated into the database would be rather trivial?

... says the guy who can't code his way out of a sock ...
It could be done. As a quick guess it would probably take around a man-month of total time to code and QA. But once you have an open input on the internet, you have to start worrying about people entering stuff into it that you did not want to have entered. That means you have to have some kind of security, which adds a procedural layer. How do tournament directors come to be registered? What is an acceptable tournament? If individual playings can be entered (and I think they could in Avalon Hill's AREA rating; I think the restriction to tournaments is not from that, although I could be wrong), how do these individual players get credentials? It would not be hard, but it would not be trivial.

JR
 

Mister T

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ECZ,

You will never*** get Perry to send in WO reports. Period. There go something like 80+ ASLers chances, and something on the order of 400+ games.

You will never*** get Bret to send ASLOK reports. There go what 100+ ASLers chances, and something over 500+ games.

For these two very special ASL events, which are on a scale well above any other tournament for a TD to run and organize and officiate, you or the new keeper must allow self reporting. In a format which you / keeper can have a bureaucratic form for.
For ASLOK, the AREA relies on the PISs (personal information sheet). Everyone leaves its PIS at the place resquested by Bret so we have all what we need. It's of course boring to enter manually the results of such a large number of games, i understand that.

For WO, it's something between a gathering and a tournament so it would not be a great loss if the TD does not care to report the results. And anyway only TDs should decide whether their event be recorded in the AREA. That's their prerogative.

Also the AREA can never be 100% accurate, we have to accept its limits (which does not make it useless at all).
 

jrv

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For ASLOK, the AREA relies on the PISs (personal information sheet). Everyone leaves its PIS at the place resquested by Bret so we have all what we need. It's of course boring to enter manually the results of such a large number of games, i understand that.

For WO, it's something between a gathering and a tournament so it would not be a great loss if the TD does not care to report the results. And anyway only TDs should decide whether their event be recorded in the AREA. That's their prerogative.
I am not sure why you call WO "between a gathering and a tournament" while not calling ASLOK the same. I don't think I could reliably distinguish between the two events in that way. Many, perhaps most, players at ASLOK are not especially interested in the tournament aspect. They might play in a mini or two, but most are certainly not there gunning for the grofaz. Perhaps not even some of those who eventually end up winning it.

JR
 

Justiciar

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For ASLOK, the AREA relies on the PISs (personal information sheet). Everyone leaves its PIS at the place resquested by Bret so we have all what we need. It's of course boring to enter manually the results of such a large number of games, i understand that.

For WO, it's something between a gathering and a tournament so it would not be a great loss if the TD does not care to report the results. And anyway only TDs should decide whether their event be recorded in the AREA. That's their prerogative.

Also the AREA can never be 100% accurate, we have to accept its limits (which does not make it useless at all).
The only* way my results from ASLOk have ever made it to AREA is b/c I self reported them. End of story.

The only* way my results from WO have ever made it to AREA is b/c I self reported them. End of story.

If you or anybody else wants AREA to have any meaning whatsoever then self reporting has to be included as means of getting AREA data to the person dealing with AREA data. If some one cheats at reporting then ban them from tournaments for a year or whatever you want as a penalty. ASLers are not cheats.

To even think only* TD are qualified to submit data is gross, and suggestive that others in the community are not worthy enough, trusted enough, etc.

Note: I have no problem with only tournament games counting for AREA. But I am just as qualified to submit the record of my own play as the TD. End of story.
 
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von Marwitz

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Was there something other than <name>-<name> 1-0 to report? I may be seeing the database soon enough anyway. The extra bits shouldn’t affect a ranking system. Guess I’ll wait and see.
7787

Here is one example for an entry - the following information is provided:

  • Win/Loss/Tie
  • Has the player been the Attacker or Defender
  • Did the player have the Axis or Allies
  • Name of the opponent (and name of the player, naturally)
  • Scenario ID
  • Name / ID of the tournament
von Marwitz
 

von Marwitz

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It could be done. As a quick guess it would probably take around a man-month of total time to code and QA. But once you have an open input on the internet, you have to start worrying about people entering stuff into it that you did not want to have entered. That means you have to have some kind of security, which adds a procedural layer. How do tournament directors come to be registered? What is an acceptable tournament? If individual playings can be entered (and I think they could in Avalon Hill's AREA rating; I think the restriction to tournaments is not from that, although I could be wrong), how do these individual players get credentials? It would not be hard, but it would not be trivial.

JR
A number of good questions.

  • One could actively approach TDs of generally renowned tournaments.
  • I'd propose giving only such TDs the option of entering results directly via a web-interface.
  • In case of such events as ASLOK or WO, maybe there would be some volunteers that could collect information on site of those willing to provide them. And such (known) volunteers might get access like TDs
  • Beyond that, I tend not to let individual playings be entered directly via a web-interface. Or if they can be entered via web-interface, then maybe not directly include them into the AREA database without prior checking of some sort. One difficulty would be to prevent non-tournament games to be entered or to prevent double-reportings for example by both opponents of the same game. Individual playings are a difficult point, though, for which I don't have a good idea for a solution.
von Marwitz
 
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You will never*** get Bret to send ASLOK reports. There go what 100+ ASLers chances, and something over 500+ games.
As a matter of fact, Bret did sent to Bruno the ASLOK games. Yes. I know as I carried back to Bret some of these year reports.
 

Justiciar

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As a matter of fact, Bret did sent to Bruno the ASLOK games. Yes. I know as I carried back to Bret some of these year reports.
As a matter of fact I know Bret, through not fault of his own, has failed to enter my games.

As a matter of fact that you "carried" reports means it is no different than myself reporting my games...you were a third party.

Are you some how more trustworthy than myself? Really? No, I think we are equally as trustworthy, as I trust us all.

STOP with this hierarchical and "special" class of person called the TD to report AREA games. That they have special status to rule on X or Y rule at their event, sure, that they can rule that Pleva OBA will be used, sure,....but they and they ALONE have the ONLY claim to report AREA is pure madness. If you believe that well gee don't look too deeply into the ROAR data of Archive data...b/c if you trust that, then you should trust the community to ABLE to self report tournaments....right.

Furthermore, it is likely that self-reporting will only pertain to 2 events ASLOK and WO. Most other tourneys are easily handled by the TDs b/c there size does not approach these other two events. { Maybe the Ozzie events also need self reporting based on what Bruce P. noted upstream...}

What is getting lost in all this is that TDs should NOT be the only means to report AREA "sanctioned" (meaning tournaments, in the widest sense WO, ASLOK, Albany, BE, Lille, Grenadier, ASO, etc..) games.

You want AREA to have meaning, you want to believe you are in a community of honest participates, the the best for AREA is to allow self-reporting. The "Keeper" will likely know the reporter, or "know of" the self-reporter, or even have a means to check if for some reason the keeper doubts the report.
 

hongkongwargamer

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STOP with this hierarchical and "special" class of person called the TD to report AREA games. That they have special status to rule on X or Y rule at their event, sure, that they can rule that Pleva OBA will be used, sure,....but they and they ALONE have the ONLY claim to report AREA is pure madness. If you believe that well gee don't look too deeply into the ROAR data of Archive data...b/c if you trust that, then you should trust the community to ABLE to self report tournaments....right.
This is true.

I was the TD (and I reported results to AREA) at the 2014 tournament in HK, after 1.5 years of playing ASL. TD's are special people who take on more work for the community but TD's not a special class. To think that the AREA results are somehow more legit because I submitted it (instead of the 30+ year players in the competition) is absurd.
 

zgrose

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View attachment 7787

Here is one example for an entry - the following information is provided:

  • Win/Loss/Tie
  • Has the player been the Attacker or Defender
  • Did the player have the Axis or Allies
  • Name of the opponent (and name of the player, naturally)
  • Scenario ID
  • Name / ID of the tournament
von Marwitz
Thanks! If I understand the original AREA spec referenced earlier, it’s a blend of ROAR and AREA data. Which is cool, just wrapping my head around the problem if the VASL team takes it up. If some other folks carry the baton then I’ll just file this away with all the other ASL tidbits. :)
 

zgrose

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This is true.

I was the TD (and I reported results to AREA) at the 2014 tournament in HK, after 1.5 years of playing ASL. TD's are special people who take on more work for the community but TD's not a special class. To think that the AREA results are somehow more legit because I submitted it (instead of the 30+ year players in the competition) is absurd.
A 3rd party validation that the game happened and was between two parties that agreed to a rated match isn’t a bad thing. The system can get stat padded if the participants don’t understand the assumptions of the rating.
 

Paul John

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I think Enrico's point was mostly about an attempt to avoid confusion and reduce the workload rather than to argue for anything special about a tournament director. As someone who himself deals with what is surely a rather chaotic communication stream I suspect he is especially attuned to that challenge.
Ultimately, those brave souls who take on this task should feel fully empowered to deal with it however they want. I will just continue to appreciate whatever they can contribute and put on a smile as I do what they tell me.
Can't wait to see if I am still over 1500!!!
 
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