APCR (ASL Player Comparative Ratings)

[TopT]

Lmao. Even worse would be this:

Newbie : " Don I'm really interested in this ASL game, looks fantastic. Could you teach me? "

Don: " Sorry newbie but I'm trying to get within 10% of player 7104`s rating and playing you would destroy any chance of that. Find another newbie who isn't rated and look me up in 10 years or so."

Newbie: " Thanks for the encouragement. Go wax your dice tower and I'll go back to playing Risk. "

Don: " Can't help you there either, my Risk rating is astronomical. "

I don't get this at all?!?

Q: If someone does not want their name posted on something and states that up front, what business is it of anyone else's to pipe in and say anything?

A: It is not. Mind your own business.

 

[STAVKA]

I would rather it simply not be an issue. Now I can say "I am not on APCR/AREA" and get a game without hassle. -- jim

I only thought this was a hassle for a very small minority of players, yet it sounds like you experienced it as a more common theme.

None of the dozen players I play with on a regular basis would care much about the rating of players they would meet in a tournament.

New tournament, new scenarios, try to win through, friendly fast paced gaming, let your opponent experience a fair friendly gaming, and help him out with the rules and if you happens to win or lose your opponent will hopefully feel invited to a cheerful game, although I must accept that some players can be a pain to play, believe it is a different gaming culture he holds dear.

 

[Actionjick]

I only thought this was a hassle for a very small minority of players, yet it sounds like you experienced it as a more common theme.

None of the dozen players I play with on a regular basis would care much about the rating of players they would meet in a tournament.

New tournament, new scenarios, try to win through, friendly fast paced gaming, let your opponent experience a fair friendly gaming, and help him out with the rules and if you happens to win or lose your opponent will hopefully feel invited to a cheerful game, although I must accept that some players can be a pain to play, believe it is a different gaming culture he holds dear.

The attitude of a gamer I gladly and gratefully would have had as an opponent .

 

[SSlunt]

1) Why should I NOT play tournaments? I only know of one tournament that uses this system to rank players... putting into it and wish you luck. -- jim

I can think of 3 that use the system. Not only to seed the first round but is used to organize each of the remaining rounds. And is a tie breaker. (Lowest Area rating wins the tie)

 

[Sparafucil3]

New tournament, new scenarios, try to win through, friendly fast paced gaming, let your opponent experience a fair friendly gaming, and help him out with the rules and if you happens to win or lose your opponent will hopefully feel invited to a cheerful game, although I must accept that some players can be a pain to play, believe it is a different gaming culture he holds dear.

As I said, it was happening in my local group. We went from a group of people who would play all the time, to a group of stagnant people who would only play other players who were near them on the ladder. I used to play a lot of chess. Same thing happened there. A lot of it was about ladder position. We did away with the ladder and people started playing again, new players were attracted to our group and the new players began commenting that they stayed away because the group was "too competitive". I feel quite strongly about it as a thriving club of nearly 70 members nearly died and was revived to a thriving group of more than 50 simply by removing the ladder.

When we play, we use my counters and maps. -- jim

 

[von Marwitz]

As I said, it was happening in my local group. We went from a group of people who would play all the time, to a group of stagnant people who would only play other players who were near them on the ladder. I used to play a lot of chess. Same thing happened there. A lot of it was about ladder position. We did away with the ladder and people started playing again, new players were attracted to our group and the new players began commenting that they stayed away because the group was "too competitive". I feel quite strongly about it as a thriving club of nearly 70 members nearly died and was revived to a thriving group of more than 50 simply by removing the ladder.

When we play, we use my counters and maps. -- jim

That explains your attitude quite nicely.

Luckily for me, I have rarely come into contact with such things personally besides the occasional player at a tournament. Then, of course, I know of some of the stories about some people and at times you can glean things here via the forum just as now.

Maybe such players also avoid me because I have always been rather vocal in my criticism of overly competitive play and a an approach in which ranking seems to be the prime driver.

von Marwitz

 

[M.Koch]

This is not a "might", this is reality (in Germany). When I attended Conscripts a year ago I had to sign two papers (1) to allow the organizers to use pictures containing my face, and (2) to allow them to use my Email address for future announcements. I signed, under duress, and included a reference to this duress next to my signature. Later I formally retracted my signature as I did not want to be part of this totally sick Datensicherheits-bullshit (EU is bad enough).

I now note that my picture, taken at Conscripts, still appear here on Gamesquad. And I have received Emails from these people as late as today. Is it finally time to report the Conscripts organizers to the Deutscher Staatssicherheitsdienst, or whatever they are called today ?

Call it "Verfassungsschutz", or "Polizeilicher Staatsschutz", or "MAD", or "BND"... choose one.
Makes me think for the next GRENADIER. I need a Datensicherheitsbeauftragten. Volunteers?!

 

[The Magnus]

Call it "Verfassungsschutz", or "Polizeilicher Staatsschutz", or "MAD", or "BND"... choose one.
Makes me think for the next GRENADIER. I need a Datensicherheitsbeauftragten. Volunteers?!

Pick me, pick me!!!! ???

reasons: 1. in a former life I was the person responsible for security including data security in an international company, with two Standorte in Germany. Germany gave me more gray hairs than all other countries combined. And we had big/bigger offices in both Russia and China?.
2. If you give me the role, I will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

At least you can be assured that I will not introduce some forms for all participants to sign???

 

[M.Koch]

Pick me, pick me!!!! ???

reasons: 1. in a former life I was the person responsible for security including data security in an international company, with two Standorte in Germany. Germany gave me more gray hairs than all other countries combined. And we had big/bigger offices in both Russia and China?.
2. If you give me the role, I will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

At least you can be assured that I will not introduce some forms for all participants to sign???

Hired.

 

[The Magnus]

Hired.

Thanks !!!

Oh, I forgot to tell you, as Datenschutzbeauftragter I of course do need the password to your laptop. But do not worry. As stated before, I will do absolutely nothing. In particular, I will not manipulate the results. Scouts honor. But if the spreadsheet shows me on top you do have to declare me the winner of Grenadier???.

 

[Sparafucil3]

Thanks !!!

Oh, I forgot to tell you, as Datenschutzbeauftragter I of course do need the password to your laptop. But do not worry. As stated before, I will do absolutely nothing. In particular, I will not manipulate the results. Scouts honor. But if the spreadsheet shows me on top you do have to declare me the winner of Grenadier???.

Of course, this would never happen as in true American fashion, I will have paid you off to declare me the winner or have stolen the password from you to do so. -- jim

 

[The Magnus]

Of course, this would never happen as in true American fashion, I will have paid you off to declare me the winner or have stolen the password from you to do. -- jim

That's fine. Don't tell Mr. Koch, but I think $50 sounds about right. I do not want to be too greedy the first time I do you such a favor!!!

 

[Actionjick]

In ASL, you can play a great game and be fucked by dice. You can also play a bad game and be carried by dice. In the long run, dice even out but in the course of a single tournament-sized scenario, luck can play a non-zero sized factor.

Jim I reread your post last night, sat down to watch Cutthroat Kitchen and kept drifting off thinking about these lines.

The thought train started off with the effect of " bad " dice rolls on short versus long scenarios then went to what a " bad " dice roll was and how conditional that concept was.

The rest of the evening was spent with Captain Bacchus and I mulling over similar ASL questions and conundrums and I was reminded that thinking about ASL was, for me at least, as enjoyable as actually playing it. Used to do repetitive factory work that allowed plenty of time for ASL reflection which I believe helped me to become a better player.

I still haven't decided if I agree with your conclusions about dice rolls but want to thank you for a thoroughly enjoyable evening spent thinking about it. Captain Bacchus asked me to convey his thanks also.

My advice to players would be to roll them bones as little as possible and not get dice happy.

 

[von Marwitz]

This is not a "might", this is reality (in Germany). When I attended Conscripts a year ago I had to sign two papers (1) to allow the organizers to use pictures containing my face, and (2) to allow them to use my Email address for future announcements. I signed, under duress, and included a reference to this duress next to my signature. Later I formally retracted my signature as I did not want to be part of this totally sick Datensicherheits-bullshit (EU is bad enough).

Data protection is not "bullshit" - terming it so is.

Data protection and sovereignty about ones own data these days is a prerequisite to maintain freedom and liberty and as such the EU General Data Protection Regulation is of fundamental importance for the protection of the individual against wholesale data collection and collation by state and private actors.

State actors (China as a crass example) and private actors (Google, Cambridge Analytica, etc.) use my data (mind you: MY data, that they claim to be "their" data) for their advantage, their financial gain, and ever more often against my own interest and to my disadvatage. To establish barriers against this Wild West manner in which these actors treat data that is - contrary to their claims - NOT theirs, is essential.

Surely, the EU General Data Protection Regulation is imperfect. But the basic problem is not the regulation but - on the contrary - the lack of it to protect those from which data is collected really originates against their consent.

Failing to see so in a position responsible for data security in an international company might be in the business interest of that company. It is not in the interest of freedom and liberty of society as a whole nor in the interest of individuals that see themselves facing 'FaceBook legal department' (make that ACME if you wish...).

It is often said that data is the 'gold' of the 21st century while 'physical' gold is that of the past.

Laws protect me - rightly so - from my 'physical' gold being taken from me, my gold being used against my will, etc. Anyone who would undertake that, would be seen as a thief or a fraud. Few question this - rightly so.

The protection of laws against my 'data' gold being taken from me and being used against my will, etc. is scant at best - wrongly so. Those who undertake it are admired for their business models and envied for their profits. Few question this - wrongly so.

If robbers, thieves, and frauds were not reigned in but admired, guess what would happen: Many would lose their gold and a few get rich by actions which are harmful to society. Go figure...


To close the circle:
If Grenadier needed a data security officer and you applied bragging about doing nothing, then you were unfit for the job and the wrong man.

von Marwitz

 

[Sparafucil3]

Jim I reread your post last night, sat down to watch Cutthroat Kitchen and kept drifting off thinking about these lines.

The thought train started off with the effect of " bad " dice rolls on short versus long scenarios then went to what a " bad " dice roll was and how conditional that concept was.

The rest of the evening was spent with Captain Bacchus and I mulling over similar ASL questions and conundrums and I was reminded that thinking about ASL was, for me at least, as enjoyable as actually playing it. Used to do repetitive factory work that allowed plenty of time for ASL reflection which I believe helped me to become a better player.

I still haven't decided if I agree with your conclusions about dice rolls but want to thank you for a thoroughly enjoyable evening spent thinking about it. Captain Bacchus asked me to convey his thanks also.

My advice to players would be to roll them bones as little as possible and not get dice happy.

You're welcome.

And you're absolutely correct about the conditional nature of luck. I played Jim Taylor once in a scenario. On the first DR, Jim rolled an 11, normally an "unlucky" DR, but in this case, it was the WC DR, started snow, and I proceeded to miss multiple shots at his on-coming tanks by 1 pip. I watched Bill Cirillo lose a game at WO on a 1,1. It was CC, Bill has the game won. He can afford to lose 2 CVP and it will be a victory. His 1,1 in CC creates a leader, leader turns out to be an 8-1, the odds don't change enough, so his opponent eliminates both the squad and the newly minted 2 CVP for a victory that comes out of no where.

To me, the smaller the scenario and the tighter the time-crunch, the less forgiving the scenario is of a few bad DR's and the more favorable it is to the side who has a few lucky DR's. Suppose on turn 1, you have 10 squads and 4 hexes of open field to cross. The enemy has it well covered. You roll up your mortar, get off 3 ROF shots and SMOKE the whole field and cross easily. If you consider only the ROF (and not the depletion number), three shots happen one time in eight tries. Contrast this with not getting any SMOKE at all (depletion number 8 means you should get at least one SMOKE, ~75% of the time). Even if you don't get SMOKE, your opponent could roll poorly and you make it across easily. Perhaps you get broken, rout to the back, and then roll poorly for a single turn on your non-DM rallies. You only had 5.5 turns to begin with, your Infantry got busted on turn 1, didn't rally on turn 2, and has effectively been out of the game for 33% of the game. To make up for this, designers give you a little extra. Now, if you do well, don't suffer the casualties the actuarial table says you should, your opponent is on his back foot because you have more than you need to get the job done and he is wondering about the balance.

As the saying goes, it's not what you roll, it's when you roll it. To me, I want to control when the dice are rolled, and I want to roll them as often as I can to create more chances for me to "get lucky". Of course, there is always the 6 -2 shot that triggers the 2MC, your opponent HOB's his 9 -1 into a 9-2, follows that up with a battle harden result on his Elite Squad, which also generates the Hero. Then to add insult to injury, your 2MC attack was a SAN, which goes off, finds the stack which just shot, kills the leader, breaks then CR's the squad who was also there. And if you're wondering, this has happened to me more times than I can count. -- jim

 

[DougRim]

Well, we do seem to have digressed. I wonder if we might get back to thinking about ASL Player Ratings . . . perhaps in a less metaphysical way, and think about what features a system might have?

What do we need to view?

1. Player list by rank order
2. Player list by alphagettical order
3. List of Tournaments included (by year, by name)
4. List of Game-by-Game Results in a Tournament
5. List of Game-by-Game Results for a Player

What do we need to be able to change?

1. Player info
2. Game Results

What do we need to be able to add?

1. New Players
2. New Tournaments (and GbyG results)

What do we need to be able to get from the site beyond the views above

1. The data
2. Tools for tournament results input

I am sure there is more?

 

[von Marwitz]

What do we need to be able to get from the site beyond the views above

Maybe some sort of explanation/documentation of how the algorithm calculates the ratings, i.e. the formula, an explanation to it, how the game result of a 'tie' is handled.

Conceivably some mechanism to deal with 3-Player games, however, as these are extremely rare, the question is if it would be worth putting an effort into it to cover these, which I doubt.

If this new AREA would be of the "closed" type, i.e. games can only be entered by tournament directors and would be limited to tournament games only (which I would favor), then some sort of interface for identification/password would be required for them so that they can enter the data.

von Marwitz

 

[Pacman Ghost]

Well, we do seem to have digressed. I wonder if we might get back to thinking about ASL Player Ratings . . . perhaps in a less metaphysical way, and think about what features a system might have?

Maybe create a new thread for this, since we're no longer talking about Aaron's APCR...?

My $0.02...

It's also important to consider processes and workflows.

We want to avoid the previous situation where one person was doing all the work, and eventually gives up, so the work has to be distributed over multiple people. This means user accounts and permissions.

Let's say Joe is TD for the ASL World Championship 2021. He obviously needs to be able to enter results, but what if there are players who are not currently in the system. Should he be able to create new player records for those people?

And what about the tournament itself? Should he be able to create a new tournament within the system? Or do we have super-users who can do that, then give Joe permissions to update it?

Or perhaps we have the concept of a tournament series i.e. a super-user can create the "ASL World Championship" series, and Joe is allowed to create the "2021" edition, "2022" edition, etc.

What happens if Joe doesn't enter the results? Is another TD allowed to do it, or does it have to be done by a super-user? Data entry is always messy and error-prone, so do we have a process that requires someone else to check the data before it goes live?

Allowing player records to be created by someone other than the player themself also opens another can of worms, because will the record contain information the player might want to change? They then need to have an account themself, and some way of connecting their account to the already-created player record. This last bit would need to be done by a super-user (to avoid abuse) i.e. a manual process :-( You could have the person send a request to the sysadmin to have the information changed, but that's more manual work.

Someone else mentioned GDPR, and this is a real consideration. I don't know much about this, but my understanding is that people have the right to request their personal data be deleted. Not made private, deleted. Are game results considered to be personal data? I don't know, talk to a lawyer. Name and country? Surely. What effect does that on the system overall, not being able to have any information on a player at all?

It might actually be a good thing, since it will force the design to handle it. The current AREA site has the concept of a private player, but I think that just means they don't appear in the list of players. However, their game results (including their name) still appear on the tournament pages; IOW, not really private, just somewhat obfuscated.

So OK, a player Fred competed in this tournament and had a player record created for him. He then asks for it to be removed, so we now know him as player #123, with no identifying personal information whatsoever, just his game results. But when Fred plays at the European Championships, how does that TD know that Fred is player #123, and he should use that player record, instead of creating a new one?

Or even worse, Fred tells the TD up-front that he doesn't want to be in this new AREA. How does the TD enter his game results, assuming Fred's opponents want their results recorded?

I think all this points to a need for the system to be able to handle anonymous players e.g. the ability to record a game result like "Mike beat someone". But how can a rating system possibly work if you don't know who one person is?

This is incredibly messy, but it's a people problem, not a technical one. The underlying issue is: what do you do when one person doesn't want to have their game results recorded, but the other one (and TD) does? Decide that, and that will then drive the technical design.

Do we require people consent to have their game results recorded? Would that even fly under GDPR? And while some people have said that this is heavy-handed, I can't imagine there's a single serious competition in the world that lets you compete, but also refuse to have your results recorded. If we want to say that ASL competitions are always friendly, relaxed affairs, then so be it, but some people do take their ratings seriously. What happens when one person really doesn't want to be in the system, but the other person really wants the points? Maybe we have AREA-required and AREA-optional tournaments, but that doesn't really solve the design problem, because we still have to be able to handle the AREA-optional tournaments.

On a more technical note, it would be nice if this thing wasn't designed as a new AREA, but instead a generic system for recording game results and calculating ratings. Then clubs could use it to manage their private ladders.

Pluggable engines to calculate ratings would be good, as well. Then we could have the classic AREA ratings, Aaron's thing, somebody else could come up with something new.

I never really saw the point of recording who is "attacker" and who is "defender". It's possible that an algorithm might take it into account when calculating a rating, but how would it work if both players are attacking? Or not recorded?

Even more pointless is "Axis" and "Allies". We saw how people can react to this (a fair consideration, IMO), and it's hard to see how a ratings algorithm would need this information, so why bother? Just note for the record that Alice had the Laotian Communist Freedom Fighters, Bob the People's Front of Judea, and be done with it ?

 

[zgrose]

On a more technical note, it would be nice if this thing wasn't designed as a new AREA, but instead a generic system for recording game results and calculating ratings. Then clubs could use it to manage their private ladders.

I believe such tools and services are already available for private ladders.

 

[The Magnus]

Someone else mentioned GDPR, and this is a real consideration. I don't know much about this, but my understanding is that people have the right to request their personal data be deleted. Not made private, deleted. Are game results considered to be personal data? I don't know, talk to a lawyer. Name and country? Surely. What effect does that on the system overall, not being able to have any information on a player at all?

Yes, the EU GDPR would indeed be a problem if the server was placed in EU and/or the owner/administrator sat in the EU. But if said server/persons are in the US, or - given Doug's nationality - maybe Canada(?), this will not be an issue. AREA/APCR is not part of a commercial entity with revenues in Europe, so EU has no standing and EU citizens have no venue for sanctions or punishment. Too bad EU, there are still countries with more freedom than EU wants to grant its citizens .

Of course people who do not want their data to be registered can avoid going to tournaments, or convince the TD's to censor the data, or convince the creator of the AREA/APCR to allow for some kind of anonymous hiding of their data. All valid paths, and all OK with me.