APCR (ASL Player Comparative Ratings)

bo_siemsen

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Does a full list of these APCR ratings exist somewhere ? I can't quite figure out the status of this project. I found a version of the rankings om page 9 or 10, but a lot of the players I am searching for aren't there.

I need a set of ratings that I can use for ASO 2020. Even if they are a bit outdated.

Thanks in advance.
 

Justiciar

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Bo,

I was informed by M.Rodgers that work has swamped Aaron...and seems for some time to come. The project is in stasis. There is no complete list as yet. Contact M.Rodgers for further details.

Andy
 

Michael R

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Doug Rimmer is making the effort to recreate the AREA database and web site formerly kept by Bruno Nitrosso. I am posting this message on all ASL social media outlets to try and obtain the databases that Bruno used to create the ratings. He has not responded to Doug’s request for the data, but we have heard people in the past state that he sent the data to them. If you are one of the people who has that data, please let me know by responding to this message in this media platform. I will contact you privately to obtain the information.
 

The Magnus

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Doug Rimmer is making the effort to recreate the AREA database and web site formerly kept by Bruno Nitrosso. I am posting this message on all ASL social media outlets to try and obtain the databases that Bruno used to create the ratings. He has not responded to Doug’s request for the data, but we have heard people in the past state that he sent the data to them. If you are one of the people who has that data, please let me know by responding to this message in this media platform. I will contact you privately to obtain the information.
Well, Aaron has a copy :) .
 

SSlunt

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Hi Doug I realize that doing what you are planning is a undertaking that is much needed and greatly appreciated by us all.
Not to add to much more but is it possible to add a Roar component that would give a more accurate rating of the scenario. using the formula for the area increase/decrease as a modifier to the value of a loss or win. ie) someone who's rating is 500 more than his opponet then the win would not be a 1 but a fraction based on the elo
 

Mister T

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Not to add to much more but is it possible to add a Roar component that would give a more accurate rating of the scenario. using the formula for the area increase/decrease as a modifier to the value of a loss or win. ie) someone who's rating is 500 more than his opponet then the win would not be a 1 but a fraction based on the elo
It is an interesting idea in theory but it runs into practical impediments:
  • the ROAR value is only broadly accurate for the few scenarios with a very large number of entries;
  • information is often missing on the type/level of balance used by contenders.
 

DougRim

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Hi Doug I realize that doing what you are planning is a undertaking that is much needed and greatly appreciated by us all.
Not to add to much more but is it possible to add a Roar component . . .
First things first: I need to AREA/APCR data!
 

von Marwitz

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What are the implications of starting from scratch?
AREA is valuable because of the data already in it.

So if this data is available, it does make a lot of sense to feed any successor with this data right from the start.
Theoretically, it should not be that difficult for Aaron to dump the data someplace so that Doug can retrieve it, but of course I don't know Aarons circumstances.

von Marwitz
 

DougRim

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What are the implications of starting from scratch?
A motherlode of work.

Database tables would have to be designed and built. This is not a huge effort but takes a good degree of knowledge and skill to do right. Bruno has provide some information but it is not complete.

Then all the past tournament data would have to be entered. Bruno's AREA site will show results of each tournament contained in his database. But I have not found a tool to extract that data in a consistent structured format that would allow for some kind of automated data entry. If someone would like to play around with that, it would be very helpful.

Reconstructing the AREA/APCR dataset is no small task, even if we can automate it.
 

DougRim

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Is this it?
http://asl-area.org

It would be straight-forward to scrape these pages and extract the data into a structured form.

However, there is the question of re-publishing the data. Is this something we can do? OTOH, this post says that Bruno has released the underlying database and scripts, so couldn't we just grab that?
Straightforward for you, great! I have tried but my skills are more limited and I could not do it. But yes, that is the data we need to get so go get it - that would be super helpful.

I had seen that post you flagged but that individual has not replied to several requests put up on the APCR thread. I thought I had messaged him directly as well. I will doublecheck and if not I will do so.

As per my previous, I am totally comfortable republishing the data based on other comments by Bruno which I will try to locate.
 

Stewart

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To clarify around Draws, In Chess a stronger player will lose some ranking when drawing with a weaker player, as he might have some expectation of winning.
If a draw in fact represents and incomplete game then no exchange of ratings should occur.
This is a key design decision which if why I have been reluctant to include draws for now.

I can see Enrico's predicament though, soo -- If a game was started (A scenario and sides were chosen) then we could include it as an "I" incomplete game, recorded in system, but not used in any rating calculation.
Although adding more Detail to the process...a higher skilled player Drawing to a lesser skilled (by a determined difference) should be considered a LOSS more than a draw. IF the players were "equally skilled" then a draw...
 

DougRim

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Good news. . . . a system for ranking ASL players is coming back to life. . . .

Building on the work of many others, including most recently Bruno Nitrosso, a new website has been built (partially) and will provide access to the previous AREA data and ratings methodology and will incorporate results since 2017 and going forward.

First and Foremost: the work on this is being guided by the principles that drive VASL: open-source and open data. Both the website files and the underlying data will be available to the ASL community at all times. See https://github.com/vasl-developers/Player_Rating_website. The new player ratings tool will be as open as vasl and will encourage and enable community participation and access.

There is a test site, still very much under development, but in the spirit of the above, you are welcome to have a look and to comment. It is being hosted deep in the heart of Texas by the good folks of the Texas-ASL Club. Many thanks to them and Sam Tyson in particular. View it here: http://ratings.texas-asl.com/ .

The site will develop as we build the functionality and I will post alerts when major updates appear. But if I get hit by a bus and never post again, the site and the data will still be available (see first-and-foremost above).

As for the data, the core data from the AREA system is captured in 3 files on the github site, with Bruno's agreement. I spoke to him yesterday and he was comfortable with what we have done so far. The data files are in JSON format and can easily be uploaded into a database. They are a community resource.

In short, the workplan for this initiative looks like this at present:
  1. Bring the site into parallel with the current AREA site: meaning that the same data as contained in AREA is used to produce the same ratings.
  2. Start adding 2017-20 data and generate up-to-date ratings using the AREA methodology.
  3. In parallel with 2, continue to build a new toolset that allows easier updating of the key components: players, tournaments and tournament games results. This would involve more tools for TDs to improve data quality from them and facilitate updating the db, plus tools to allow individuals to contribute.
  4. Explore options for a more fundamental redesign of the data, the algorithms, and the output as per A. Cleavin’s work or something like it.
Final points:

  1. This is not being done by a secret society or closed group. Anyone who wants to contribute to this is not only welcome but is totally free to do so. (In saying that, I do NOT mean to be critical of any work that has given us tools in the past. We are all greatly indebted to people who simply "got her done!")
  2. Comments, suggestions and observations are all welcome. Just as they are with VASL. The aim is to build a useful toolset so we need to know what you need, what works, what doesn't. You know the drill: it won't all get done right away but it is not ignored.
More later (but soon).
 

SSlunt

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ALL HAIL Mr Rimmer - and everyone else that was involved. I am sure I speak for a lot of us here

THANK YOU!!!
 

Sparafucil3

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How do I opt out so no game I play is recorded? -- jim
 
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