AP198 Hassle at Hasselt

[Hexagoner]

SSR 2 sez "Each JgPz V may set up using HIP, and retains Concealment as an Emplaced Gun when firing its MA (A12.34)". This seems to allow HIP setup for those JgPanthers literally ANYWHERE in the setup area, even open ground paved road hexes. Was that intended? Should the SSR instead say something like "Each JgPz V may set up in Concealment Terrain using HIP, and retains Concealment as an Emplaced Gun when firing its MA (A12.34)"

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The rules for HIP says it can only be done in Concealment Terrain.

A12.3:
"HIP is a form of concealment wherein a player may secretly record the location of his units in Concealment Terrain..."

 

[Maurizizio]

That was a big discussion during a tournament. And to be honest we end up considering “any hex, including Open Ground hexes”. So I guess there should be an errata/addendum cause it is not clear for a lot of us. Not a negative judgement, but a simple suggestion to make players’ life easier (and more enjoyable). IMHO

 

[Hexagoner]

This one really confuses me because the SSR is clear and unambiguous and SSRs take precedence over the rules.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

When an SSR says "set up using HIP", one then goes to the rules to check the rules for setting up using HIP.

Pretty much all SSR granting HIP uses this expression - be it for Infantry or vehicles.

 

[Larry]

An SSR overriding a rule should explicitly state that it is overriding the rule. The suggestion that "Each JgPz V may set up using HIP, and retains Concealment as an Emplaced Gun when firing its MA (A12.34)" allows HIP in OG does not abrogate A12.3. Let's play it out.

A HIP gun in OG comes on board concealed when in LOS. A12.34. But a vehicle loses concealment if not in concealment terrain on the chart. The SSR says "retains concealment as an emplaced gun." If the JgPzV could set up in non-concealment terrain, then that interpretation would mean that the SSR set aside A12.3 but also the concealment loss/gain table. The SSR did not intend to do either thing.

 

[Stewart]

HIP as a Gun and they can be setup in OG, just under a ?ment when in LOS.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

They do not set up as a hidden Gun in this scenario. They just retain Concealment as an Emplaced Gun when firing their MA.

 

[Stewart]

They do not set up as a hidden Gun in this scenario. They just retain Concealment as an Emplaced Gun when firing their MA.

generally meant to indicate it can
and enjoys other benefits such as in ALL buildings.

 

[pwashington]

Getting ready to play this one. Issue for the Germans is that all Concealment terrain in their set up area is off road, and EC are Mud. They will risk at least one Bog check (it looks like with at least a +3 DRM) to move back onto a road hex.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

EC are Mud will not invoke the Secrect Bog DR. But, IIRC, "Mud (E3.6) is in effect" applies to this senario. But that means perhaps the British vehicles are more likely to enter on the roads...

 

[pwashington]

Klas,
Thanks, I saw E3.6, but also read D8.23 which appears to invoke Bog possibilities. Would be happy to be proven incorrect.

 

[zgrose]

D8.23: "When scenario Weather (E3) is “Mud” or “Deep Snow”, a vehicle ..."

There is E3.6 Mud (which is the state of the Weather) and there is B25.5 Mud (which is the state of the EC). They are two different things.
If EC is Mud but the Weather is not Mud, D8.23 doesn't kick in.

 

[pwashington]

From the scenario card:
"EC are Mud, with no wind at start. Mud (E3.6) is in effect. Weather is Overcast (E3.5)."

The EC vs. Weather difference is not something I had caught in the past.

Edit: In re-reading the rules references, I'm not sure B25.5 applies (generating ECs when they're not specified). I always saw Weather as a component of EC, not a separate factor. E3.61 invokes D8.23, so I don't see how they're not linked. For this scenario I expect both sides' vehicles will be mostly roadbound. Not sure I'm looking forward to maneuvering a JgdPz V cross-country.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

"EC are Mud" - that just determines the EC DRM for fire spread. "Mud (E3.6) is in effect" - that invokes the Bog DR (and a bunch of other stuff).

E3.6 also says - "EC are always “Mud”." - so normally when E3.6 is in effect, the EC will also be Mud (but an SSR can, of course, override that).

 

[Maurizizio]

"EC are Mud" - that just determines the EC DRM for fire spread. "Mud (E3.6) is in effect" - that invokes the Bog DR (and a bunch of other stuff).

E3.6 also says - "EC are always “Mud”." - so normally when E3.6 is in effect, the EC will also be Mud (but an SSR can, of course, override that).

Is it possible to have a flow chart for no native English speakers?

 

[synicbast]

As I'm the poor sap who chose to play the Scots against Paul, I did so understanding that Secret Bog DRs would be in action. The Plan I have come up with could either be one from Baldrick or George Smiley, depending on how it goes. And I'm more peeved that I can't use Smoke than having to worry about secret DRs