AP181 - No Dunkirk ford placement question

[MajorDomo]

Is it legal to put the River ford hexes in the River hexes shown?

SSR#2 - ....North Koreans secretly designate 6 river hexes as fordable (B31.121).

My other thought is that a Ford must connect two land hexes (which is the case when a ford exists in a stream). However, the rules do not cover fords in Rivers.

If the above is legal, the scenario is probably broken as the Russian units may just keep fording until the stream on the other side.

Thanks
Rich

 

[EagleIV]

The normal Ford rules don't require that a single Ford connect to land hexes on both sides, they are written so that in some cases you will cross several Ford hexes to cross a River, so what you have should be fine. However entering a Ford costs all your MF and can't be done in the APh so you will only go 1 hex per turn although as you have placed them, you can move into the N6 Ford and advance to M6. On the next turn you can move to M4, on the third turn move to M3, on the forth turn to L2 and advance to K2 or K3. If you stay in just the Fords it will take 6 turns to cross the River, not 4.

A shorter rout would be to place Fords in M7 and N6 and others in K4 and L3 to cross in 3 turns.

All the above assumes you don't get shot at and don't spend time shooting or anything other than moving.

Also B31.121 is not the Ford rules, it is changing TCA in a Narrow Road. Fording is B21.41.

 

[MajorDomo]

The normal Ford rules don't require that a single Ford connect to land hexes on both sides, they are written so that in some cases you will cross several Ford hexes to cross a River, so what you have should be fine. However entering a Ford costs all your MF and can't be done in the APh so you will only go 1 hex per turn although as you have placed them, you can move into the N6 Ford and advance to M6. On the next turn you can move to M4, on the third turn move to M3, on the forth turn to L2 and advance to K2 or K3. If you stay in just the Fords it will take 6 turns to cross the River, not 4.

A shorter rout would be to place Fords in M7 and N6 and others in K4 and L3 to cross in 3 turns.

All the above assumes you don't get shot at and don't spend time shooting or anything other than moving.

Also B31.121 is not the Ford rules, it is changing TCA in a Narrow Road. Fording is B21.41.

Why does it cost all your MF to move into a ford from an adjacent ford?

Looks like it should be 3 MF (shallow) instead of 4 MF (deep) based upon B20.81.

B20.81 - Movement into a ford stream hex from any direction is treated as if the water depth were one classification shallower (dry rather than shallow; deep rather than flooded).

 

[Doug Leslie]

Why does it cost all your MF to move into a ford from an adjacent ford?

Looks like it should be 3 MF (shallow) instead of 4 MF (deep) based upon B20.81.

B20.81 - Movement into a ford stream hex from any direction is treated as if the water depth were one classification shallower (dry rather than shallow; deep rather than flooded).

It's not a stream.

21.41 FORDING: Fording may be attempted by Infantry/Cavalry only in river hexes defined as both fordable and non-frigid. Pushing motorcycles/Guns is not allowed while fording. Entrance of such a hex costs the unit's entire MF allotment and is considered Hazardous Movement for as long as the unit is in that hex.

 

[Larry]

Why does it cost all your MF to move into a ford from an adjacent ford?

Looks like it should be 3 MF (shallow) instead of 4 MF (deep) based upon B20.81.

B20.81 - Movement into a ford stream hex from any direction is treated as if the water depth were one classification shallower (dry rather than shallow; deep rather than flooded).

The scenario does not depict a ford in a stream but a ford in a river. The scenario is 6 turns long. The NK need to be on dry land at the start of turn 6 to have a chance of getting out alive. They can also swim.

 

[MajorDomo]

The scenario does not depict a ford in a stream but a ford in a river. The scenario is 6 turns long. The NK need to be on dry land at the start of turn 6 to have a chance of getting out alive. They can also swim.

Now I understand the difference between fordable hex and ford in a stream.

My stringing the six fordable hexes would require 6 turns of one hex movement and a last turn advance into the stream to get north of the river.

That still allows three conscripts squads and a leader to use this tactic for 7 exit VP ( or 8 with a -1 leader). The Amis would be very hard pressed to interdict these fleeing conscripts and I fear scenario imbalance.

Looks like a fun scenario if you eschew this tactic.

Thanks for your replies and education.
Rich

 

[Larry]

There are a lot of buildings for the Americans to grab.

 

[Cpl Uhl]

Looking at this but regarding whether the US tanks can Ford the river. B21.4 states that "Entrance of a Water Obstacle hex is usually [now, THAT'S useful!] limited to units on bridge boat or amphib vehicle. Otherwise, entrance is limited to swimming or fording by Personnel units."

OK, clear enough.

But then B21.122 Depth states "Wrecks appear IN Water hexes only in fordable rivers."

So how the heck do they get there?

 

[Doug Leslie]

Looking at this but regarding whether the US tanks can Ford the river. B21.4 states that "Entrance of a Water Obstacle hex is usually [now, THAT'S useful!] limited to units on bridge boat or amphib vehicle. Otherwise, entrance is limited to swimming or fording by Personnel units."

OK, clear enough.

But then B21.122 Depth states "Wrecks appear IN Water hexes only in fordable rivers."

So how the heck do they get there?

Could be amphibians.

 

[EagleIV]

Could be amphibians.

More likely the are waterproofed so that they can be in 3-4 feet of water as opposed to amphibians which float.

 

[Cpl Uhl]

Thanks!

 

[ScottRomanowski]

Maxim 32 "Anything is amphibious if you can get it back out of the water".

 

[Wayne]

[Nice link, Scott ]

 

[Doug Leslie]

More likely they are waterproofed so that they can be in 3-4 feet of water as opposed to amphibians which float.

Not sure about this. River fording (as opposed to wading) rules are specific to infantry/cavalry and make no exception for waterproofed vehicles. A river ford is still a water obstacle and my reading of the rules (unless I am missing something) is that only an amphibious vehicle can enter it. In that event it would, as you say, be floating as opposed to fording and would be expending amphibious MP.

 

[Wayne]

B21.41 FORDING: Fording may be attempted by Infantry/Cavalry only in river hexes defined as both fordable and non-frigid. Pushing motorcycles/ Guns is not allowed while fording. Entrance of such a hex costs the unit’s entire MF allotment and is considered Hazardous Movement for as long as the unit is in that hex. There is no penalty for leaving a Water Obstacle hex other than the doubling of MF for each higher elevation entered [EXC: Abrupt Elevation Change; 10.5]. Fording units may not move upstream directly against a heavy current. Fording units are immune to Pin effects. A Water Obstacle cannot be entered (via fording) during the APh, but can be left in the APh. Mortars, MMG, and HMG must be dm to be portaged by fording Infantry/ Cavalry.

Not sure about this. River fording (as opposed to wading) rules are specific to infantry/cavalry and make no exception for waterproofed vehicles. A river ford is still a water obstacle and my reading of the rules (unless I am missing something) is that only an amphibious vehicle can enter it. In that event it would, as you say, be floating as opposed to fording and would be expending amphibious MP.

Agreed.

Confusion stems from the scenario card using the B20.8 Ford chit as p/o the North Korean OB. That rule allows use of the chit only by SSR and only in a stream or gully hex.

Because AP181 designer Pete Shelling gave the chits for use in river hexes instead, B20.8 text is kinda NA. AP181 SSR 2 say use rule B21.41.

The North Korean OB in AP181 contains no vehicles. Opposing Amis have M24 tanks. Nothing in that vehicle note allows an M24 to ford rivers. Nor is B20.46 applicable, as that rule concerns only traversing stream hexes, not river hexes. So even if the Ami player discovers the ford(s), the M24s cannot use them.

So I read the card, anyway.