AP140 and Fog

Sparafucil3

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AP140 Misty Morning says Fog is in effect (E3.31). According E3.311, "All Smoke rules otherwise apply." Does this mean:
-- The +1 for firing out of a SMOKE location applies?
-- There is an additional 1 MF/MP for each Fog hex/Location entered?
-- Does the answer to either of these change if I am IN a Building Location?

I think the answer is yes in all cases but it isn't clear. I don't see how it can be otherwise.

So this begs the question: was it playtested that way? -- jim
 

jrv

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According E3.311, "All Smoke rules otherwise apply." Does this mean:
-- The +1 for firing out of a SMOKE location applies?
-- There is an additional 1 MF/MP for each Fog hex/Location entered?

I think the answer in both cases is yes. I don't see how it can be otherwise.

So this begs the question: was it playtested that way?
I can't imagine it was not. The Germans have (I believe) seven (!) Panthers, and if they are moving around at full speed without the extra +1 attack DRM, the Americans are going to be shredded. But I have no first-hand knowledge on the playtest, and I have only seen it played, not played it myself.

JR
 

Sparafucil3

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I can't imagine it was not. The Germans have (I believe) seven (!) Panthers, and if they are moving around at full speed without the extra +1 attack DRM, the Americans are going to be shredded. But I have no first-hand knowledge on the matter.

JR
It's not +1, it's +1 per Hex, no? If Adjacent, it's +3, correct (A24.8 applies too)? The more troubling factor is the movement penalty. From the far edge, it's 25+ hexes. From the bottom/top, it's 15+ to the VC area. Even double timing and in stacks, it's 3 - 4 turns to make it to fight and that's un-opposed. -- jim

PS: Unless I am just not understanding it correctly, there is no LOS beyond 4 hexes (+2 for my hex, +1 for each hex there after for a +5 hindrance at 4 hexes, +6 at 5 hexes).
 

jrv

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It's not +1, it's +1 per Hex, no? If Adjacent, it's +3, correct (A24.8 applies too)? The more troubling factor is the movement penalty. From the far edge, it's 25+ hexes. From the bottom/top, it's 15+ to the VC area. Even double timing and in stacks, it's 3 - 4 turns to make it to fight and that's un-opposed. -- jim

PS: Unless I am just not understanding it correctly, there is no LOS beyond 4 hexes (+2 for my hex, +1 for each hex there after for a +5 hindrance at 4 hexes, +6 at 5 hexes).
I was referring to just the +1 for firing out of SMOKE. In addition there is also +1 for the firing hex, +1 per hex between and +1 for the target hex (if not the same hex). The games I observed at ASLOK were using all the DRM (both country and western), and it made for a slow ineffective attack. On the other side it also meant no FFMO. I started watching after the initial turns so I didn't see the initial entry movement. There was one VC building at the northern end of the board that the Americans defended with a light force (three halfsquads I believe) which took the Germans longer than they expected, and even mounting up as riders, the Germans were having a hard time making it to the main town before the game ended.

JR
 

Sparafucil3

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That was my instant analysis. The game is won or lost at set up by the Germans. Enter badly and you have almost no chance. Enter smartly, and you have some chance. -- jim
 

jrv

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That was my instant analysis. The game is won or lost at set up by the Germans. Enter badly and you have almost no chance. Enter smartly, and you have some chance.
I have a vague recollection that someone said something similar. The Germans had to enter the closer side, this player said. I did not look at it in detail to see what they meant. Also the Americans had some HIP of some kind (perhaps only guns, but I don't have the scenario at hand to check), and once the Germans had taken buildings they had to leave someone behind to garrison them.

JR
 

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I have a vague recollection that someone said something similar. The Germans had to enter the closer side, this player said. I did not look at it in detail to see what they meant. Also the Americans had some HIP of some kind (perhaps only guns, but I don't have the scenario at hand to check), and once the Germans had taken buildings they had to leave someone behind to garrison them.

JR
The US has 4 HIP guns (3x 76L and 1x 57L) and then roving Bazooka patrols...347, 8-0, 1-4-9, 2x Baz 44 which can set up HIP.

I think there might be a "gack" on the FOG element at some level of application for reasons you all note above. I don't think an all in on the short side for there Germans is right, as a 3-4 looking plot os US in the forward "long" zone requires at least a platoon of German SS and 2 Panthers...while the remaining SS enter short side to be then a hammer and anvil against the other German entering.... (4MP on simple crossing bocage...2 for bocage, 1 OG, 1 Smoke...turn burner...anything to force that...

Be interesting to see what the "powers" say on your comments.

Andy
 

Perry

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AP140 Misty Morning says Fog is in effect (E3.31). According E3.311, "All Smoke rules otherwise apply." Does this mean:
-- The +1 for firing out of a SMOKE location applies?
-- There is an additional 1 MF/MP for each Fog hex/Location entered?
-- Does the answer to either of these change if I am IN a Building Location?

I think the answer is yes in all cases but it isn't clear. I don't see how it can be otherwise.

So this begs the question: was it playtested that way? -- jim
You're no dummy. You have the rules correct.
(And they don't change unless firing within a building.)

Bret and the gang are no dummies either.
They playtested this scenario using these rules.

Fog sucks, but sometimes you have to embrace the suck.
 

Sparafucil3

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You're no dummy. You have the rules correct.
(And they don't change unless firing within a building.)

Bret and the gang are no dummies either.
They playtested this scenario using these rules.

Fog sucks, but sometimes you have to embrace the suck.
I didn't think so (I agree Brett and company are no dummies). I hope I wasn't implying as such. Polish Requiem was play-tested thoroughly and yet was originally play-tested with both an MA and CMG on the FT-17. Mistakes happen, even when really smart and really good players are involved. WRT fire INSIDE a building; it took me a long time to find E3.8. Common sense seems like it should be enough, but that doesn't always hunt at the ASL table.

WRT the suck: it's really not that bad. As the SS, you just push forward. FFNAM Adjacent to a 6-6-6 is a 12+2 absent any other DRM's. It only gets worse from there. With a +2 Hindrance shooting out, you can only see to 4 hexes. At 5 hexes, the LOS is blocked by +6. Freedom of movement is a given. The SS just have to push hard.

My opinion on this one: the Germans can get it done. I think they have to be VERY smart about how they deploy at setup. They can't afford to waste units pushing at the perimeter buildings only to come up short pushing to the core. They shouldn't have too much problem with the CVP. I need to try the Germans to see if my opinion changes afterwards. -- jim
 

jrv

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I didn't mean to suggest all-in on one side, although that might sound like what I was saying. The Germans have to control all multi-hex buildings by game end. There are some that are outliers, and the German has to send appropriate forces to take these as well as enough to attack the core of the village. I was concerned that there wasn't enough time to get to the core, but I was told that a force entering on the closest edge should have enough time to take it out.

One thing I am wondering about is if the Americans set up a strong force in the northern building while appearing weak, will the Germans have enough time to shift over? If the Americans put two squads there plus all the HIP stuff (emulating a speedbump of two halfsquads), might they be able to fool the Germans long enough to make the shift there impossible to achieve?

JR
 

Steven Pleva

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I played this as the Germans at ASLOK and won. I think it is a reasonably fair scenario. PBS takes care of any difference that might exist (for Albany). I won't give my analysis until after Albany. I like to leave it in the player's hands...
Steve
 

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Interesting take on the force selection as to the best of my knowledge there were no 57mm ATGs present at St. Barthelmey. The 823rd Tank Destroyer Bn was a 76mm halftrack towed Bn and 5 of its tubes were emplaced in/around St. Barthelemy. I base my observations on the US fire plan that included all automatic weapon systems to include the locations of M1919s, M2's HBs, ht locations, all ATG positions as well as Cmd elements and unit battle positions with general orientation but do not include a reference to a single 57mm ATG emplacement which I find very strange indeed as it is included in the OB. Now there were several 57mm ATG locations noted in the fire plan for an adjacent unit a bit up the road at L'Abbaye Blanche along with a some additional tubes from the 823rd, but this engagement doesn't seem to take in that fight as well. :unsure:
 
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