AP use of ITT

[Flarvin]

I have a question regarding when AP may use the Infantry Target Type (ITT) to hit table. From C3.32, C8.31, C11.52 and B30.35 [ASLRBv1] the only times AP may use ITT is against pillboxes (TK# > 2 times defense mod.) and verses guns (and their crews). Is there any other that I am missing?

Flarvin

 

[Reepicheep]

Take a closer look at C8.31 (which you referred to).

You'll see that AP can also use the ITT against infantry/cavalry receiving a wall/building/rubble/pillbox TEM.

 

[Flarvin]

Take a closer look at C8.31 (which you referred to).

You'll see that AP can also use the ITT against infantry/cavalry receiving a wall/building/rubble/pillbox TEM.

It says that HEAT may be used against infantry/cavalry receiving a wall/building/rubble/pillbox TEM, but for AP it says “normal AP use?” and Collateral Attacks.

I have always played like you said. When I reread these rules it seems that I was playing wrong. Or it could just be that I am missing something.

ASLRBv1

C8.31 The explosive force of HEAT was considerable and, although less than HE, could still have a devastating effect on exposed personnel. Therefore, all HEAT ammunition (whether used by SCW or ordnance) has an HE Equivalency FP which is used against Personnel targets of for Collateral Attack and rubble/fire determination purpose. HEAT may only be fired at a vehicle or Gun, or at Infantry/Cavalry behind a wall or in a building/rubble/pillbox. AP is also given HE Equivalency for normal A-P use, as well as for Collateral Attacks. However, AP/APCR/APDS/ATR attacks never leave Residual FP.

Flarvin

 

[Reepicheep]

Ahhh... I see the question now. What does "normal A-P use" mean, do you think? I presume "A-P" is an abbrevation for "Anti-Personnel", although it's not defined directly in the index, other than making up part of the definition for "A-P Mines".

 

[Flarvin]

Ahhh... I see the question now. What does "normal A-P use" mean, do you think? I presume "A-P" is an abbrevation for "Anti-Personnel", although it's not defined directly in the index, other than making up part of the definition for "A-P Mines".

That was what I was thinking but wanted to be sure.

Flarvin

 

[mgenberg]

Yes, it's not directly quoted in the index, but "A-P" is anti-personnel.

After you run out of HE, keep firing that gun with AP on the IFT. The 2 flat can have an effect.

 

[Brian W]

After you run out of HE, keep firing that gun with AP on the IFT. The 2 flat can have an effect.

It sure can, especially with high ROF weapons. I played The Mad Minute once and one of the 57L's that got bypassed ended up spending the entire game taking long range AP shots at my infantry trying to get into the town. I couldn't believe how effective that darn gun could be.

 

[Reepicheep]

Do the restrictions for firing HEAT at infantry targets in C8.31 apply to AP (HE equivalency) shots? Or can they fire at any infantry regardless of terrain?

 

[Ole Boe]

Do the restrictions for firing HEAT at infantry targets in C8.31 apply to AP (HE equivalency) shots? Or can they fire at any infantry regardless of terrain?

The HEAT restriction is exactly that, a HEAT restriction, so it doesn't apply to any other ammo types.

So you can fire AP at infantry regardless of terrain.

In addition to those AFV without HE, I've also used this a couple of times with AFV that has depleteable HE ammo. Use AP to gain acquisition when you don't think you'll hit anyway (esp. AFPh shot after having moved the AFV), and then change to HE in the next Player Turn when you can hope to hit the enemy.

This of course only works when targeting Known enemy units though - since AP cannot be used when firing on the ATT.

 

[Flarvin]

So you can fire AP at infantry regardless of terrain.

Then why does in the first sentence of C3.32 state that ITT is only uses with HE [exceptions of C8.21 and C11.52 for HEAT and AP]. C11.52 deals with Guns and C8.21 gives when HEAT can target infantry. Problem is that C8.21 states for AP “normal A-P use”.

What is “normal A-P use” and why does the 1st sentence in C3.32 state ITT for HE use only when AP can use it anytime?

It just seems to be a confusing way to say AP can fire at infantry anytime. But that is nothing new for ASLRB. :nuts:

I love this game.

Flarvin

 

[Ole Boe]

Then why does in the first sentence of C3.32 state that ITT is only uses with HE [exceptions of C8.21 and C11.52 for HEAT and AP].

The exception isn't C8.21 and C11.52. The exception is that AP and HEAT can be used, but only vs unarmored targets. C8.21 and C11.52 are merely references for AP and HEAT shots.

So C3.32 says that ITT can be fired using HE, with the exception that it can be fired using HEAT and AP vs unarmored targets.

C11.52 deals with Guns and C8.21 gives when HEAT can target infantry.

C8.31 isn't only about HEAT, it is about the HE equivalency of any HEAT and AP.

Problem is that C8.21 states for AP “normal A-P use”.

What is “normal A-P use” and why does the 1st sentence in C3.32 state ITT for HE use only when AP can use it anytime?

To answer the last question first, because AP cannot use it anytime, only vs unarmored targets.

Normal A-P use isn't an ASL term, so I guess it simply means "the normal way you use ordnance vs personell".

But that sentence isn't important. What is important is that:
* C3.32 allows AP to be used on the ITT vs unarmored targets.
* C8.31 tells us what the HE equivalency of AP is.

 

[Corporal Kindel]

It sure can, especially with high ROF weapons. I played The Mad Minute once and one of the 57L's that got bypassed ended up spending the entire game taking long range AP shots at my infantry trying to get into the town. I couldn't believe how effective that darn gun could be.

Yep, same thing happened to me playing No Better Spot to die from Paratrooper, moved my crummy French R39 tanks into the Gully as soon as I could to get out of the LOS of that 57L and then it proceeded to kill my infantry with 2 even AP shots after it ran out of HE7, all those 3ROF 2(IFT HE-equivalent) AP shots were killer.

By the way I had a thread on this exact same topic some time ago, here's the link:

http://www.war-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23643

 

[Hubbs5]

I always thought AP rounds stood for armor piercing. Not as effective as HE against infantry and also why you have to fire at infantry behind a wall or building so the impact against a hard surface will make them explode. It is in my v2 index on page 2. I think that makes more sense in why they differentiate between the two.

 

[Ole Boe]

I always thought AP rounds stood for armor piercing. Not as effective as HE against infantry

You're correct so far. That's why a 80mm HE hit is rolled on the 16 FP column while a 80mm AP hit is rolled on the 2 FP column, i.e. much less effective vs infantry.

and also why you have to fire at infantry behind a wall or building so the impact against a hard surface will make them explode.

This is a rule for HEAT, you'll not find anywhere in the ASLRB that says this restriction applies to AP - only to HEAT. I even think there is a footnote explaining why HEAT has this restriction, but im sans ASLRB now.

It is in my v2 index on page 2.

Nothing about the hard surface restriction for AP in my index...

 

[Beseler]

funny, i just brought this up on the aslml

yes, of course AP means armour piercing. normal "A-P use" might mean something else..who knows.

but alas, one has to accept this convoluted path to the fact that one can use an AP shell on infantry standing in open ground, using the ITT.

and yes, with that rof... well, in pbcg, my opponent is firing his depleted HE 57L's at me with AP, and with -2 acq, at my units in the woods...at 6 hexes away...we're looking at a original DR 4 getting a 4-1 CH!!! (did that quickly in my head, but think it's right)

 

[Corporal Kindel]

I always thought AP rounds stood for armor piercing. Not as effective as HE against infantry and also why you have to fire at infantry behind a wall or building so the impact against a hard surface will make them explode. It is in my v2 index on page 2. I think that makes more sense in why they differentiate between the two.

Right, AP stands for armor piercing, but A-P stands for anti-personnel (can be verified by cross checking with A-P [anti-personnel] minds). Note, the wording of the AP HE-equivalency rule states "can be used for *normal A-P use*" where normal A-P use {intuitively} is by firing TH vs infantry on the ITT with its HE-equivalency [usually 2 IFP for Guns >= 37 mm IIRC] as its attack value. That can turn deadly rather quickly in cases with Guns having a high ROF retain ROF & gain acquisition in the process of smelting your infantry in the open.

AP {HE equivalency} doesn't have to be used against infantry behind walls, rubble .. but HEAT does. The index entry quotes C8.31, which is the rule referenced above.

 

[Ole Boe]

but alas, one has to accept this convoluted path to the fact that one can use an AP shell on infantry standing in open ground, using the ITT.

I disagree that this one is convoluted at all. C3.32 says: "The Infantry Target Type can be selected only when firing HE [EXC: AP or HEAT vs an unarmored target (8.31, 11.52)]"

Nothing more is necessary for the fact that one can use AP on infantry in the open. So only needing one sentence (although with an important exception) is about as far from convoluted as you get in ASL. :nuts:

The only additional thing you need to know is the AP round's HE equivalency and effect vs Guns, but that doesn't deal with the fact that the shot is allowed - which rests only in the above C3.32 sentence.