Anything new in RS?

[KED]

A set of Japanese paratroops came in BFP's Blood and Jungle.

JR

I was hoping MMP would get the hint.

 

[olli]

I was hoping MMP would get the hint.

Buy B&J then?

 

[hongkongwargamer]

IJA paras aside, Blood & Jungle offers top notch value by way of PTO action! Paying's for a brief moment but the enjoyment is forever ~

 

[witchbottles]

I was hoping MMP would get the hint.

Would this not be infringement of BFP's I.P rights then? There is a very fine line to walk here. One cannot scream that a TPP making nationality counter kits would be dirty, underhanded and I.P infringement upon MMP and yet give MMP the capability, right , and motive to do so with glee and abandon.

From a more functional view, I'd prefer they concentrate on the hokey pokey and HLv3, please.


KRL, Jon H

 

[KED]

Would this not be infringement of BFP's I.P rights then? There is a very fine line to walk here. One cannot scream that a TPP making nationality counter kits would be dirty, underhanded and I.P infringement upon MMP and yet give MMP the capability, right , and motive to do so with glee and abandon.

From a more functional view, I'd prefer they concentrate on the hokey pokey and HLv3, please.


KRL, Jon H

So what your telling me is that MMP cannot make a scenario or historical study about the one and possibly only Japanese air drop of WWII because some TPP did it first?

 

[witchbottles]

So what your telling me is that MMP cannot make a scenario or historical study about the one and possibly only Japanese air drop of WWII because some TPP did it first?

not at all, I am saying one cannot accept that MMP has a right to publish counters of a given type for use in ASL when those counter types have already been published by a TPP, and then use the exact same argument to state why MMP can and should use Hasbrotroll's influences to prevent any TPP from publishing counter types for use in ASL that have already been published by MMP or TAHGC.

The entire idea is ludicrous, is it not? TPPs have been making counters for more than 20 years. You will have a hard time justifying broaching any argument now about them doing so.

In any event, as I noted: Rather than see MMP duplicating the well - done efforts of the TPPs ( be they counters, scenarios (as one sees all the time in the Journals), maps or full modules); I'd rather see their limited time availability for ASL products applied to Core modules ; original Journal work; Action Packs with new mapsheets and terrain; and reprints of the still needed core modules. ( Focus on your strengths , not your competitor's strengths. BFP made very nice IJA paratroops. HoB made finally those long - needed FJ partially armed troops, some of those counters needed a bit of quality work, but still, at least we got them. and so on, and so on, ad naseum.)

Basic good business sense.

KRL, Jon H

 

[witchbottles]

So what your telling me is that MMP cannot make a scenario or historical study about the one and possibly only Japanese air drop of WWII because some TPP did it first?

Suggest you read Steve Swann's "Falling Sparrow" article in the old ASL mags.

there was more than a single paradrop.

 

[KED]

not at all, I am saying one cannot accept that MMP has a right to publish counters of a given type for use in ASL when those counter types have already been published by a TPP, and then use the exact same argument to state why MMP can and should use Hasbrotroll's influences to prevent any TPP from publishing counter types for use in ASL that have already been published by MMP or TAHGC.

The entire idea is ludicrous, is it not? TPPs have been making counters for more than 20 years. You will have a hard time justifying broaching any argument now about them doing so.

In any event, as I noted: Rather than see MMP duplicating the well - done efforts of the TPPs ( be they counters, scenarios (as one sees all the time in the Journals), maps or full modules); I'd rather see their limited time availability for ASL products applied to Core modules ; original Journal work; Action Packs with new mapsheets and terrain; and reprints of the still needed core modules. ( Focus on your strengths , not your competitor's strengths. BFP made very nice IJA paratroops. HoB made finally those long - needed FJ partially armed troops, some of those counters needed a bit of quality work, but still, at least we got them. and so on, and so on, ad naseum.)

Basic good business sense.

KRL, Jon H

I was just hoping to see MMPs quality touch on this subject.

 

[KED]

Suggest you read Steve Swann's "Falling Sparrow" article in the old ASL mags.

there was more than a single paradrop.

I have it somewhere. I just could not remember how many air drop operations the IJA did. Interesting subject!

 

[Srynerson]

A set of Japanese paratroops came in BFP's Blood and Jungle.

JR

I need to go back and look at B&J -- that's the second time in two weeks that I've missed something in it.

 

[jrv]

I need to go back and look at B&J -- that's the second time in two weeks that I've missed something in it.

It was a big set of stuff. I knew I owned a set of Japanese paratroops but I didn't know where they came from, and I was away from my set. I found out they came from B&J on desparationmorale.com. If you have some time, read Mark's review. It was enlightening.

JR

 

[KED]

Japanese para represented by a 2-2-8 MMC? I thought they were armed with sub machine guns and carbines. I need more info!

 

[hongkongwargamer]

Japanese para represented by a 2-2-8 MMC? I thought they were armed with sub machine guns and carbines. I need more info!

IJA paras in B&J are "Partially Armed Japanese Paratroopers". ".. treated as pre-1942 German Paratroopers (E.9.7) for purposes of dropping partially armed and locating arms canisters."

Steven Swann's other article in ASL Annual 1995 "Airbourne Samurai: Reference Notes For ASL" designates the use of 4-4-8 as IJA paratroopers and 4-4-8/4-4-7 as IJA glider troops.

 

[KED]

IJA paras in B&J are "Partially Armed Japanese Paratroopers". ".. treated as pre-1942 German Paratroopers (E.9.7) for purposes of dropping partially armed and locating arms canisters."

Steven Swann's other article in ASL Annual 1995 "Airbourne Samurai: Reference Notes For ASL" designates the use of 4-4-8 as IJA paratroopers and 4-4-8/4-4-7 as IJA glider troops.

No mention of SMGs in the mix?

 

[witchbottles]

No mention of SMGs in the mix?

Out of sheer curiosity, what standard issue SMG do you envision Imperial Japanese Airborne Forces to have been equipped with from 1941 to 1944 ( Their operational time frame.)??

In any event, the Tieshin Rentai were organized as 4 rifle companies, a MG company, and a "weapons" company. ( the Glider units having a bit more added in; at the overall cost of troop quality),

the Rifle companies were standard SNLF line rifle companies, T/O 1941. As such, no SMGs were issued to the line companies ( the 4-4-8's). the MG companies were equipped with 5-6 MGs of various types, all crewed by 2-2-8 s. Since the standing up of the Imperial Japanese Airborne Forces was conducted under the close training and advice in tactics and operations from German observers and advice consultants who worked with the Japanese government in establishing them from 1938-1940; they followed the typical pattern for parachute forces using the standard German parachute, each man armed with only a pistol and grenades, the rifles and other weapons arriving in simultaneously dropped canisters. Hence a partly armed 2-2-8 squad ; a la BFP.

The Gilder troops rode in with their rifles and equipment, so are reflected as 4-4-7s and the INF support troops as 3-4-7's.

Strongly suggest you get copies of the various articles out there if you can find them. Steve Swann did a wonderful job with this force for the Annual; there is another of his works around in a different 'zine I've seen, but cannot put a finger on it about the same forces.

KRL, Jon H

 

[jrv]

The Type-100 Submachine gun was used by Japanese Paratroops according to wikipedia:

Some 6,000 to 7,500 were made at Nagoya Arsenal and delivered primarily to the Imperial Japanese Navy for its marine paratroops (Rikusentai), but also to Army paratroops—Teishin Shudan—who used them in February 1942, during the Battle of Palembang, on raids against oilfields. Navy paratroops used the weapon in the first months of 1942 during the Battle of Manado and the Battle of Timor.

JR

 

[witchbottles]

The Type-100 Submachine gun was used by Japanese Paratroops according to wikipedia:



JR

Well I am never a fan of Wikipedia, no real surprise there..... so digging further for much, much better resources than Wikipoop.

"Note The original meaning of the Japanese word Rikusentai refers to a group of sailors detached from a warship for a special landing mission."
http://www.dutcheastindies.webs.com/SNLF.html

"1st Yokosuka SNLF
849 men
Parachutes onto Menado airfield, Celebes
(naval parachute unit)"

"3rd Yokosuka SNLF
849 men
Landing on Koepang, Timor Island
(naval parachute unit)"

"Of the above, probably the most unique were the 1st and 3rd Yokosuka SNLFs, which comprised the Japanese Navy's own parachute infantry force. Apparently not all the men in each of these three outfits were provided with jump training, as a force of 750 in each SNLF were organized as combat paratroopers, the remainder as an administrative and logistic base force. The Navy paratroopers were only organized on the very eve of the war, beginning in September 1941. Their first training drop occurred only on November 16th"

http://www.dutcheastindies.webs.com/SNLF.html

"Therefor, in the late 1920's, the Imperial Japanese Navy began to form permanent Naval Landing Forces at its four main naval bases, Sasebo, Maizuru, Kure, and Yokosuka, designating them as Special Naval Landing Forces (SNLF), known in Japanese as Rikusentai.
The original meaning of the word Rikusentai was a group of sailors detached from a warship for a special, temporary mission."

http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_navy/ijn_ground-units/_snlf_organization.html

"Yokosuka 1st SNLF
(Parachute unit) 20.09.41
[08.12.41]
11.01.42
849 men Raised
21st Naval Air Flotilla, 11th Air Fleet, at Kagi Airfield (Chia-i, China)
Parachutes onto Menado airfield (Celebes) ex Davao (Philippines)"

"Yokosuka 3rd SNLF
(Parachute unit) 20.11.41
[08.12.41]
10.12.41
16.01.42 ~750 men
849 men
849 men Raised
Enroute Calayan Island, Babuyan Islands, Luzon Strait onboard destroyer Tachikase.
Lands on Camaguin Island (Luzon Strait) ex Taiwan.
Arrives at Tarakan (Borneo, NEI)"
http://niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_navy/ijn_ground-units/_snlf_organization.html

the actual name for the SNLF units was
"Tokubetsu rikensentai"

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Japan/IJA/HB/HB-12.html

Ibiblio's doucumentaiton sources cite th following:

"(2) Submachine guns. No submachine gun of Japanese manufacture, comparable to the Thompson, M3 or Reising has been found, although several German Solothurn 7.63-mm (.30 cal.) and 9-mm (.35 cal.) SMGs and Schmeisser MP 28II, SMGs have been recovered."
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Japan/IJA/HB/HB-9.html#II

a direct conflict with wikipoo, albeit at the behest of a US Army official War record that had been published at a time when the war had not yet finished.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=476
http://securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/3200/3254.htm
(as well as the Wikipoop cited references)

all show similar data on the paratrooper model of this SMG

between 6,000 and 7,000 of this folding stock model were manufactured between Jan 1942 and Sept 1944 by Nagoya Arms Arsenal as the sole manufacturer. The side folding stock greatly weakened the recoil absorbing ability of the stock. Few were actually issued, but those that were had in fact been issued to the 1st and 3rd Yokusuka SNLF.

Several examples were captured post war during the Occupation weapons turn ins and collections. US Army proofing tests post war reveal a weapon that was design sound and unremarkable as a SMG,firing a very low power round even in the realm of SMG ammo, with a moderate magazine capacity, an overly large weapon weight for this class of small arm, an inherent flaw in accuracy overall at ranges beyond 7 yards, and with the underpowered ammunition of dubious quality in manufacture, very prone to feed and extract jams.


the U.S. Army Proving Grounds Staff rated this SMG on a general par with the Reising SMG.

Not exactly a shining example of weaponry, but it does indeed appear to have been used in at least 2 separate airborne assaults. Again however, one must determine then if the paratroopers jumped with large quantities of these SMGs in hand or if they were within the weapons canisters co - dropped with the paratroops. I would expect that if a few of these SMGs were on hand and on person during the jump, one could conceivably grant the partly armed MMCs with spray fire and the 4-4-8 should in fact be, if large quantities of this SMG are on hand, a 4-4-8.

But you'd need more than what is out there to show that the even a majority of the force was armed thusly.

KRL, Jon H

 

[KED]

Good info. I knew the Japanese paras had SMGs but did not know the type or numbers used or where and when they were used. Was the round used the same as the nambu pistol? That would explain a lot.

 

[JohnisaG8tor]

Technically they are all new counters, larger font and fresh off the presses.

Like fresh hot Krispy Kreme doughnuts! (Just had to print this when reading that phrase)

Now I want some!!! :bite:

 

[jrv]

Good info. I knew the Japanese paras had SMGs but did not know the type or numbers used or where and when they were used. Was the round used the same as the nambu pistol? That would explain a lot.

Wikipedia has the cartridge as 8x22mm Nambu, so they would seem to be the same.

JR