Any ideas at what range most WWII infantry combat took place?

ActionBurk

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Was thinking about the range of ASL infantry units and wondering if an infantry squad could really hit a SMC at 480 metres ( assuming a normal range of 6 ) in a combat situation and started wondering at about what range the average WWII footslogger engaged the enemy. Any ideas or real data?

Lets assume the effective combat range was much less than what is seen in ASL. Would you play with an SSR that limited long range fire to the units printed range with full firepower at half that range?

Thanks, Darryl
 
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zgrose

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You don't have to hit the guy, just throw enough lead downrange to make him want to leave the area. KIA is just shorthand for "no longer present and available to be controlled by the player." :)
 

ActionBurk

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You don't have to hit the guy, just throw enough lead downrange to make him want to leave the area. KIA is just shorthand for "no longer present and available to be controlled by the player." :)
Agreed. It works well as a game concept.
 

Steven Pleva

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Depends on the theater and location. On the west front the ranges were a couple of hundred yards. On Guadalcanal it was probably closer to 50 yards...

Steve
 

Danno

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The Germans actually reviewed this during the war and found most engagements had combat between 200 and 300 meters. Concealment, cover, maneuver and observation made engagements at greater range less likely. The weapons were lethal and accurate out to 1000 meters or greater.

This study led to the development of the shorter 7.92 x 33 mm Kurz round and the Sturmgewehr to fire the round. Filling the gap between long rounds and pistol rounds and matching actual combat practices.
 

ActionBurk

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Depends on the theater and location. On the west front the ranges were a couple of hundred yards. On Guadalcanal it was probably closer to 50 yards...

Steve
Yes Steve I think you are right that a lot depended on the theater of operations.
Darryl
 

ActionBurk

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The Germans actually reviewed this during the war and found most engagements had combat between 200 and 300 meters. Concealment, cover, maneuver and observation made engagements at greater range less likely. The weapons were lethal and accurate out to 1000 meters or greater.

This study led to the development of the shorter 7.92 x 33 mm Kurz round and the Sturmgewehr to fire the round. Filling the gap between long rounds and pistol rounds and matching actual combat practices.
Thanks, exactly the kind of info I was looking for.
Darryl
 

wrongway149

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You don't have to hit the guy, just throw enough lead downrange to make him want to leave the area. KIA is just shorthand for "no longer present and available to be controlled by the player." :)
Broken = ' Thinking about not moving any closer at this time'.
 

samwat

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The Germans actually reviewed this during the war and found most engagements had combat between 200 and 300 meters. Concealment, cover, maneuver and observation made engagements at greater range less likely. The weapons were lethal and accurate out to 1000 meters or greater.

This study led to the development of the shorter 7.92 x 33 mm Kurz round and the Sturmgewehr to fire the round. Filling the gap between long rounds and pistol rounds and matching actual combat practices.
Do you have any suggestions for something good to read about the issue?
 

Paul M. Weir

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Another way of looking at things is to review the trends during the first half of the 20th century.

In the 2nd Boer War the ranges were quite long. At Modder River the British were pinned down once they got any closer than 1000m, suffering ~450 KIA & WIA. At Colenso the British lost 10 of 12 field guns (the other 2 were eventually retrieved) to long range rifle fire. Modder River would require units with 12+ normal and 24+ long range fire. This was a war where MG were extremely rare and the Boers had relatively little but good artillery. Unlike later 20th Century wars the bulk of British casualties were due to plain rifle fire.

In the Russo-Japanese War, things were not so simple. At the siege of Port Arthur the majority of casualties were a mix of artillery with a good chunk from machine guns. Being closer to WW1 trench warfare I suspect something like 50%+ artillery, 25%+ MGs and the rest a mixture of rifle, grenade and bayonet. The other main land battles were more manoeuvre orientated with longer ranges with artillery dominant, MGs to a lesser extent than PA and rifle fire.

In WW1 the vast majority of casualties, something like 2/3, were due to artillery with MG fire accounting for most of the rest followed by rifle fire. Ranges could be as low as 50m, as long as 500m in places like the Vosges but most in the 100m to 200m range. In the Eastern Front and subsequent Russian Civil War unit density often was much less than the Western Front and ranges opened up, but 500m would be about the limit. Defensive depth usually was much less also.

In the interwar years most nations reviewed WW1 lessons. While all recognised that WW1 battle ranges were in the order of 200m, many militaries felt that WW1 was an aberration and that subsequent wars would be more fluid and long ranged. Hence, combined with enormous stocks of long ranged rifles, any move to replace existing rifles with less powerful ones died. The really physically long rifles were gradually replaced or converted to less clumsy weapons, continuing a trend from during WW1, but they were still quite long ranged.

The one development that did arise was the change in purpose of the rifle squad. In the Japanese and German army the squad became the LMG squad with the riflemen as support for the squad LMG. The Italians started WW2 with a platoon with a LMG squad and a rifle squad, the LMG squad having 2 LMG sections each with 2 LMG and the rifle squad with 2 rifle sections (no LMG), sections being closer in size to other nation's squads. The British and French on the other hand viewed the LMG as a support for the riflemen. The Soviet and US Army were closer to the British and French in doctrine while the USMC experimented with the fireteam concept in the various colonial Banana Wars.

WW2 finally solidified the lessons of WW1. While not as close ranged as the majority of trench warfare, the various combatants found 200m-300m being typical. The Germans first doubled the number of LMG in the infantry squad to 2, starting with Panzergrenadiers (in Panzer Divisions) quickly extending to Motorised Infantry (later called Panzergrenadier Division with the addition of tanks or assault guns) and by '43 to ordinary leg infantry divisions. They also introduced the first intermediate power round (7.92x33mm Kurz) that were used in the first mass produced assault rifles (StG 44).

The StG 44 using 7.92x33mm K was not the first AR using an intermediate round. The USA had introduced the Pedersen Device (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedersen_device) in 1918 that converted a M1903 Springfield (.30-06) to an assault-ish rifle for walking fire (ASL Assault Fire) when 'going over the top' but the arrangement though ingenious was quite impractical on the battle field and was quickly dropped post WW1. The WW2 US M1/M2 carbine was in practice more a greatly enlarged pistol substitute than an assault rifle and lacked stopping power. Prior to WW1 there had been 2 trends in rifle rounds. One was the various 7.5-8mm, the German 7.92x57mm, British .303", Russian 7.62x54mmR, French 8×51mmR, etc which were about the limits for most due to recoil and subsequent accuracy. The other were the various 6.5mm like the Japanese 6.5x50mmSR, Swedish 6.5x55mm and Italian 6.5x52mm. The latter though with not the same stopping power (and recoil) were as accurate or at least pretty close to their 7.5-8mm brethren. The Russian Fedorov Avtomat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedorov_Avtomat) was designed for a new 6.5mm round but switched to using the existing Japanese 6.5x50mmSR in the world's first manageable automatic rifle that used a less than full power rifle round but greater than a pistol round. At 400m its dispersion was 1.1x0.9m. Due to its complex manufacturing and use of foreign ammunition only about 3k were manufactured until 1924.

Prior to WW1 and more especially in the interwar period various rifle round in the 6.5-7mm class were proposed. The reasons were a mix of better ballistics and the inability of most soldiers to fully utilise the full range and power of the 7.5-8mm rounds. However the inertia and economic limitations of that period meant that most countries were loath or unable to switch to lighter rounds (indeed the Japanese and Italians went or tried to go up).

The Soviets were the first in WW2 to apply the lessons of reduced practical range by their introduction of the Regimental SMG company (2 in Guards Regiments), starting in '42. By late-'43 a platoon in each rifle company might be converted to a SMG platoon, becoming more common towards the end of the war. They also introduced the SKS semi-automatic rifle using their own 7.62x39mm intermediate by war's end and that round was later used in the AK47. The Germans had accepted the reduced range and combined with the requirement to have weapons with longer range than the 9mm pistol round that was still controllable in full auto lead to their 7.92x33mm K round. While much hot air has been expended about how much the German 7.92x33mm influenced the Soviet 7.62x39mm the rifles were internally quite different and it's not like the Soviets were incapable of producing good, reliable war winning weapons.

Post WW2 nearly all nations started to move towards lower power rounds, like the British 0.280". However the US (stupidly, I think) insisted on keeping full power rifle rounds (7.62x51mm, a warmed over .30-06) despite 50+years of battlefield experience only to switch to 5.56mm in the '60s. Today there is bit of a push to move to something a bit more powerful in the 6-6.5mm range due to experience in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is not that the average engagement range has gone all that much beyond 300m, just that there are sufficient number of times when the range gets to 400-600m in the less vegetated terrain, also more firing up hill can be a problem.

With the exception of the US, nearly all other nations had, from their experience of both World Wars, come to the conclusion that an intermediate round was quite sufficient for the vast majority of cases. Though some like the British favoured a little more punch than the Soviets for example, to cater a bit better for the rarer longer ranged fight, such a switch to the 200-400m class of rifle can only have come from hard earned battle field experience. Nations do not switch weapon systems just for the fun of it. I outlined the rifle trends as evidence for the dominance of the short to intermediate range in infantry firefights that eventually overcame institutional and doctrinal inertia and economic restraints.
 
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Paul M. Weir

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Was thinking about the range of ASL infantry units and wondering if an infantry squad could really hit a SMC at 480 metres ( assuming a normal range of 6 ) in a combat situation and started wondering at about what range the average WWII footslogger engaged the enemy. Any ideas or real data?

Lets assume the effective combat range was much less than what is seen in ASL. Would you play with an SSR that limited long range fire to the units printed range with full firepower at half that range?

Thanks, Darryl
While I think I answered the first part by showing the effects the shorter than expected ranges had on military design and procurement, I did not touch the second. I have hit rabbits at what seemed like 100m but when walked was closer to 150m and that with a plain .22" LR, a round with about half the muzzle velocity of a WW1/2 rifle, never mind a lighter, thus easier slowed, bullet. Granted the rabbits were not returning fire, but I barely saw the tips of their ears above the grass.

ASL units fire at full effect from 2 hexes (80m) to 6 (240m). The latter 6 hex units are those like the German 4-6-7/8 or US 6/7-6-6/7/8 that either have a belt fed GPMG type (German) as their LMG or have multiple BARs backed by semi-automatic rifles (USA/USMC). In both cases the sheer volume of fire gives them a little bit of extra effective 'reach'. Ignoring the pure SMG Soviet 5-2-7 and 6-2-8, the other 2 or 3 hex units represent over aged or poorly trained, equipped, motivated or nourished troops. That leaves the bulk of from adequately to well trained and/or experienced troops in the 4-5 hex (160-200m) range. That is not a great distance and if they could not hit much at that range you might as well surrender.

In pre-WW1 and interwar armies the aim in rifle training verged more towards effective fire out to 500m, sometimes more. Indeed most full power rifles up to WW2 had sights graded to 1000m or even 2000 yards in the case of Lee-Enfields, ridiculous I know. While few soldiers would be effective much beyond 500m+, the fact that even the simplified 'battle sights' on some Lee-Enfields had two settings, 300 & 600 yds shows what was expected of trained soldiers.

While most engagements were in the 100-300m range, that does not mean that fire was ineffective beyond that, just that in practice it was not required or impossible due to LOS restrictions. I would not be in favour of reducing ASL ranges as I think that ASL is erring a bit on the conservative side. I might even favour allowing 1/4 FP up to 3 or even 4 times normal range for some troops (maybe 1/4 to 3x and 1/4 with +1 DRM to 4x range), mainly for originally long service peacetime soldiers or units with a high percentage of such troops.
 

ActionBurk

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While I think I answered the first part by showing the effects the shorter than expected ranges had on military design and procurement, I did not touch the second. I have hit rabbits at what seemed like 100m but when walked was closer to 150m and that with a plain .22" LR, a round with about half the muzzle velocity of a WW1/2 rifle, never mind a lighter, thus easier slowed, bullet. Granted the rabbits were not returning fire, but I barely saw the tips of their ears above the grass.

ASL units fire at full effect from 2 hexes (80m) to 6 (240m). The latter 6 hex units are those like the German 4-6-7/8 or US 6/7-6-6/7/8 that either have a belt fed GPMG type (German) as their LMG or have multiple BARs backed by semi-automatic rifles (USA/USMC). In both cases the sheer volume of fire gives them a little bit of extra effective 'reach'. Ignoring the pure SMG Soviet 5-2-7 and 6-2-8, the other 2 or 3 hex units represent over aged or poorly trained, equipped, motivated or nourished troops. That leaves the bulk of from adequately to well trained and/or experienced troops in the 4-5 hex (160-200m) range. That is not a great distance and if they could not hit much at that range you might as well surrender.

In pre-WW1 and interwar armies the aim in rifle training verged more towards effective fire out to 500m, sometimes more. Indeed most full power rifles up to WW2 had sights graded to 1000m or even 2000 yards in the case of Lee-Enfields, ridiculous I know. While few soldiers would be effective much beyond 500m+, the fact that even the simplified 'battle sights' on some Lee-Enfields had two settings, 300 & 600 yds shows what was expected of trained soldiers.

While most engagements were in the 100-300m range, that does not mean that fire was ineffective beyond that, just that in practice it was not required or impossible due to LOS restrictions. I would not be in favour of reducing ASL ranges as I think that ASL is erring a bit on the conservative side. I might even favour allowing 1/4 FP up to 3 or even 4 times normal range for some troops (maybe 1/4 to 3x and 1/4 with +1 DRM to 4x range), mainly for originally long service peacetime soldiers or units with a high percentage of such troops.
Paul you are Grofaz! Thanks for the info.

I like your idea of extra long range.
Thanks, Darryl

BTW Tegan delivered 2 black kittens and 3 tabbies Saturday night. All doing well.
 

Michael Dorosh

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In pre-WW1 and interwar armies the aim in rifle training verged more towards effective fire out to 500m, sometimes more. Indeed most full power rifles up to WW2 had sights graded to 1000m or even 2000 yards in the case of Lee-Enfields, ridiculous I know. While few soldiers would be effective much beyond 500m+, the fact that even the simplified 'battle sights' on some Lee-Enfields had two settings, 300 & 600 yds shows what was expected of trained soldiers.

While most engagements were in the 100-300m range, that does not mean that fire was ineffective beyond that, just that in practice it was not required or impossible due to LOS restrictions. I would not be in favour of reducing ASL ranges as I think that ASL is erring a bit on the conservative side. I might even favour allowing 1/4 FP up to 3 or even 4 times normal range for some troops (maybe 1/4 to 3x and 1/4 with +1 DRM to 4x range), mainly for originally long service peacetime soldiers or units with a high percentage of such troops.
Mmm...to add to this good summary, doctrine also comes into account. "What was expected of trained soldiers" differed from nation to nation. The British Army "expected" the LMG to support the riflemen in minor tactics and battle drills at the section level. (In the German Army, it was the other way round, and the LMG formed the core of firepower while riflemen supported it.) But as the war progressed, the British leaned heavily on their artillery while the Germans depended more on their medium mortars. Calling down high explosive fire was a tonic, but also a threat - which meant that if you were in positions and opening engagements at "long" range, all you were doing was inviting the enemy to go safely to ground and dump his mortars and artillery on you.

There is a belief that German tanks were at an advantage because of their high velocity guns (L and LL in ASL talk) but Allied research found that the average engagement range for German guns in NW Europe was something like 800 metres, even when they had the ability to shoot out over two kilometres. As Paul noted, the terrain no doubt played a part in this, but the doctrine of the gunners also dictated that they hold their fire until they were assured of getting a clean hit/kill. Just because you "can" hit something at long distances, doesn't make it a good idea...
 

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Mmm...to add to this good summary, doctrine also comes into account. "What was expected of trained soldiers" differed from nation to nation. The British Army "expected" the LMG to support the riflemen in minor tactics and battle drills at the section level. (In the German Army, it was the other way round, and the LMG formed the core of firepower while riflemen supported it.) But as the war progressed, the British leaned heavily on their artillery while the Germans depended more on their medium mortars. Calling down high explosive fire was a tonic, but also a threat - which meant that if you were in positions and opening engagements at "long" range, all you were doing was inviting the enemy to go safely to ground and dump his mortars and artillery on you.

There is a belief that German tanks were at an advantage because of their high velocity guns (L and LL in ASL talk) but Allied research found that the average engagement range for German guns in NW Europe was something like 800 metres, even when they had the ability to shoot out over two kilometres. As Paul noted, the terrain no doubt played a part in this, but the doctrine of the gunners also dictated that they hold their fire until they were assured of getting a clean hit/kill. Just because you "can" hit something at long distances, doesn't make it a good idea...
For German Panzer schutze 800 meters was an ideal battle range, as a Tankie I can let you know that at that range a humble Pz IV H is going to be lethal to most allied tanks and it offers the gunner the ability to almost place his round as long as his gun is bore sighted to his sight properly.

Infantry as has been stated, depends on the theatre, also on the battle, I am thinking Stalingrad, ranges changed from 1000 meters to 0! Normandy is the same, ranges varied, the Armed forces of all nations have what can be classed as the optimum range for each and every weapons system, but nothing is set in concrete and local situations will ultimately dictate at what range you engage the enemy, along with suppression, will to fight, training etc, the list is rather long. Folk get to hung up on what a weapon can do on paper, this is always a good base for discussion as in the field the results are generally not the same, not always but they never perform exactly the same as they do under test conditions.
 

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Wasn't there a lengthy discussion of a lot of this in the first ASL Designer Notes, at least as far a ASL is concerned? I remember being impressed by the thoroughness of the analysis. In designing the game system it was necessary to account for as many variables as possible. Not everything could be handled, but they did a fine job. If pure accuracy were the only criterion for lethality, the rifled muskets of the ACW, it is claimed, were good out to 600 yards and beyond, and they pushed heavy minie balls. But they used black powder that fogged up the battlefield with the first volley or two. Rate of fire improved with such developments as breech loading, and the en bloc clip, then the detachable box magazine. Not to mention automatic weapons fire.

I'm just hitting a few points here. My real point is that the ASL system has stood the test of time, accommodating a surprising variety of design factors in a rather playable format.
 

Paul M. Weir

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While most military rifles were sighted and accurate to something like 800 yds/m (some WW1 Lee-Enfields apparently had sight graduations to 2800 yds!!!!) that is not what I am considering. Even the Martini-Henry single shot black powder rifles were regarded as good to 800 yds by competition target shooters, at 1000 yds they were felt to be getting beyond their useful range, 400 yds was when volley fire (as in the film "Zulu!") started. Smaller calibre (IE WW1/2 full power rifles) smokeless powder weapons could in skilled hands could do a fair bit better. I mentioned Modder River where Boer fire was quite lethal at 1000m.

I tried to give my impressions about what I have read about WW2. I have never served in the military, never been under fire and have fired less than 100 rounds, mainly .22", in my life. I also realise that memoirs and even professional AARs will have gaps, exaggerations and misconceptions. The only things you can be sure of in that type of situation is on the lines of "This morning I was back there, tonight I am here, we found 20 dead enemy and lost 10, 2 of who I know are definitely dead". The Tiger tank turns out to have been a field kitchen in the wrong place in the twilight and the German Paratroopers turn out to have been some real nuns fleeing the battle, fortunately all unhit. Too many times commanders had little knowledge of where their own troops were, never mind the enemy and in what strength

However limited in detail or accuracy that memoirs and AARs are, they are in agreement about the relatively short range, at least compared with the expected ability of their weapons. Even excluding true ambushes, too often troops had little good idea of where fire was coming from. On the other hand good troops could often get quite close to an objective without being noticed. Limited vision ranges contributed, most of Western Europe have sighting ranges measured in the low hundreds of meters. Cold War studies of W. Germany found average sighting ranges to be in the order of 300-500m and that was for tanks sighting tanks! Villages and hamlets every few km. Eastern Europe is more open in places but can be quite close in others. My memory of flying into Berlin was like flying over a weed clogged pond, lots of woods interspersed with small lakes and waterways. We all have visions of the Steppe but much of central and Northern USSR was wild woods and swamps.

My suggestion about 1/4 FP to 3x or 4x normal range is only intended for cases where that was a noted factor in the historical action. LMG will get disproportionally penalised or rendered ineffective under such quartering as bipod mounted automatic weapons will not be as acccurate as a careful rifleman firing single shots, tripod MMG/HMG will have some effect at such ranges. I would still see mandatory fire direction beyond 16 hexes being still in play. While I agree with the limited ASL ranges in general, sometimes the idea that a Soviet C 4-2-6 can have absolutely no effect at 200m (5 hexes) I find a bit difficult to believe, not much, fine, absolutely none, not even psychological ... eh, wtf!

Of course having spent so much time on small arms, we should not forget that something like 1/2 to 2/3 (time and theatre dependent) of casualties were caused by artillery which is grossly under represented in ASL, both in terms of quantity and effect.

PS: Glad to hear the kittens arrived healthy. I am more than a bit in awe, what is it now, 15 mouths to feed and clean up after.
 
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jrv

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While I agree with the limited ASL ranges in general, sometimes the idea that a Soviet C 4-2-6 can have absolutely no effect at 200m (5 hexes) I find a bit difficult to believe, not much, fine, absolutely none, not even psychological ... eh, wtf!
Ranges in ASL conflate a lot of ideas. First there is the physical range of the weapon and the skill of the operator. But second is the enthusiasm of the units. Units that are not that interested in the on-going conflict will not necessarily notice a far-away threat, or they will think it is not their problem, or they will find something else to do, like take cover. So could a conscript put down a whoopin' on a unit at a thousand meters? Yes, if they had a mind to.

JR
 

Yuri0352

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Ranges in ASL conflate a lot of ideas. First there is the physical range of the weapon and the skill of the operator. But second is the enthusiasm of the units. Units that are not that interested in the on-going conflict will not necessarily notice a far-away threat, or they will think it is not their problem, or they will find something else to do, like take cover. So could a conscript put down a whoopin' on a unit at a thousand meters? Yes, if they had a mind to.

JR
I would recommend the books 'On Killing' and 'On Combat', both by Lt. Col. David Grossman. Grossman's research and his books cover this subject in great detail, especially the psychological and training components which could explain the morale and range factors as listed on the counters, as well as the subject of ELR in general.
 

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I would recommend the books 'On Killing' and 'On Combat', both by Lt. Col. David Grossman. Grossman's research and his books cover this subject in great detail, especially the psychological and training components which could explain the morale and range factors as listed on the counters, as well as the subject of ELR in general.
While both are interesting books, it would say it goes a bit too far to refer to them for an explanation why the broken morale of a regular US squad should be 8 while it is 6 for a regular Polish one.

von Marwitz
 
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