Any comments on MMP'S pre order list

rdw5150

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"MMP has made the decision to get ASL products much closer to being "ready for prime time" before putting them on the list. "

As I said, I applaud this decision...... I think this is great idea.....

now get back to work on the Tarawa guide:clown:

Peace

Roger
 

ScoobySnacks

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Actually Roger if you follow CSW Dean (I think ?) is the one proofing and dealing with the printers, not MMP. So that game is a perfect example of the difference. As soon as it hit its pre orders all components went to the printers from Dean, not MMP. While VoTG is still being worked on Case Blue is complete. based on the followings of CSW I don't see where the ASL MMP guys really do work with Case Blue until the will ship it.
 

kdalton

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Okay, one more post

Roger brings up a good point. When we start going to press with items we try to gang print things like counter sheets to lower per unit cost. A game like South Mountain with only one counter sheet is therefore going to be bundled in with other games. So sometimes the game is done, but we're gang printing something with it. This usually doesn't take that long, as we are always printing something.

Case Blue is so *freaking* huge it is simply taking a while to get it printed. And we're making sure all those maps line up, etc.
 

rdw5150

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"Actually Roger if you follow CSW Dean (I think ?) is the one proofing and dealing with the printers"

I did not think that is how it worked, I know he does the laying out, proofing, etc. but he "submits" it to MMP for printing....

Though I may be wrong......

Either way the guys at MMP have too much to do, and I am not certain I would want their second, full time, job......

Peace

roger
 

Bob Holmstrom

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Hopefully, MMP can become profitable enough that they can quit their day jobs and work full time on ASL, er, i mean MMP games.
 

ScoobySnacks

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I'm sure MMP deals with the printers for all products, after all the shipments go to their office and they must have some master agreement for volume discounting. From that they get involved with proofing and such, but the depth (like they would scrutinize ASL products) is probably left to Dean which would tie up most of the time. Its MMP's product but not their design, so the designer must have a lot of input. ASL is more of their baby so I'd imagine the amount of time they work on ASL products would far outweigh the time spent on other games.

Just a guess based on the readings on this and CSW's forums from ASL and non ASL MMP guys.
 

Faded 8-1

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ASL is more of their baby so I'd imagine the amount of time they work on ASL products would far outweigh the time spent on other games.
Imagine is the appropriate word, because there's no evidence of this whatsoever.

The evidence suggests that VotG has spent a lot of time collecting dust while Gamer's products get the attention.
 

SamB

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The evidence suggests that VotG has spent a lot of time collecting dust while Gamer's products get the attention.
No, there is no real evidence of this. The size and complexity of a project like VotG is likely the reason it is taking longer. (IOW, the fact that Gamers stuff has been published while VotG has not is not "evidence" that they aren't working on it.)

I appreciate Keith's post and MMPs decision to assume that ASL material will hit it's P# and therefore wait till it's ready to go (or nearly so) before posting. In effect, MMP will be giving you a 20% discount for "pre-ordering" an item that we all know will be made. This is entirely in the customer's favor. (<Wisper Mode>They could print the ASL stuff without a P# and we'd all pay full price.)
 

MadDog_CDN

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Totally awesome....

This will be my one and only post on the issue.

MMP has made the decision to get ASL products much closer to being "ready for prime time" before putting them on the list. When we first started the preorder system, we had no idea how our customers would respond, and how fast some items might climb. It was new territory for us.

Certainly, our initial batch of offerings took their time to hit their number, including ASL stuff (Operation Veritable). As time has past, the delay between "post and ASL item for preorder" and "ASL item hits number" has diminished considerably. Witness Valor of the Guards and Few Returned. Yes, we know this had something to do with subject matter. But we also can be confident ASL stuff is going to hit.

Instead of continuing the pattern of post it-watch it make preorder number in days-finish the game we're going to try get the game mostly finished - set it for preorder - print and ship. The former was based on the early paradigm that assumed the ASL stuff would take a long time to hit. We are attempting to live by what the preorder page says.

In game publishing, as in life, if you keep doing the same old thing, you are going to get the same result. We can make this change with the confidence that an ASL item will hit the magic number in a short time.

We now have three people - Charlie Kibler, Derek Spurlock, and myself - working on ASL layout besides Brian. This *should* speed up the process.
Thanks for the great products, you're HASL's are the best I have seen.

Trying to get products near completion before putting them on pre-order is a great move, and one I hope pays you dividends.
 

ScoobySnacks

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Imagine is the appropriate word, because there's no evidence of this whatsoever.

The evidence suggests that VotG has spent a lot of time collecting dust while Gamer's products get the attention.
The tantrum on CSW is not enough eh? At least you did not cut and paste your rant so we had to read the same whine twice.
Would you care to display your evidence? I completely agree that VoTG has been collecting dust, but at the expense of Gamers games? Do you really think we don't have VoTG in all of our hands right now because they have published other games the past couple years?
 

ScoobySnacks

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Not to intentionally pile on more but... straight from designers mouths:

"I am not sure what "layout" means in ASL land, but if it means to lay out the counters in a template and proof them, Niko or Knut or Mark do put them in files for me to proof. I assume Dean does that himself for Gamers stuff.
None of us do anything for ASL, nor do Brian, Perry, Curt, or Keith have anything to do with laying out our stuff." Per Adam Starkweather of IGS

So where now does the bottleneck occur that pushes back ASL products? I guess there is my evidence, so where again Mark is your proof?
 
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Khill

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We now have three people - Charlie Kibler, Derek Spurlock, and myself - working on ASL layout besides Brian. This *should* speed up the process.
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

God love ya
 

Tater

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I don't think anyone would question the demand for any ASL product.
OK, maybe my understanding of the Pre-Order system was wrong...or maybe the policy has changed since I last read it. But if the MMP belief is that ASL will go like hotcakes why the hell does it still take show incredibly long for an ASL product to come out?

In the case of ASL, they need to be further along the lines of The Gamers material and have a product ready to be sent to the printers the day it hits its target. It appears that is what they are attempting to do.
Yeah, but all that does is change the perception...does it actually speed up how long it takes to get given ASL products turned? No...it doesn't...we will still be waiting just as long for ASL products...they will still be coming out just as slow...they just won't be up for pre-order as long. For example, take VotG, we would still have waited years for the product...but it would have only been on the Pre-Order page for a couple of months before shipping. So, other than the perception (i.e., press) what would have changed?
 

Tater

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Do you really think we don't have VoTG in all of our hands right now because they have published other games the past couple years?
OK, let's say VotG hasn't languished due to other games...then, why has it taken so ridiculously long?
 

Faded 8-1

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The tantrum on CSW is not enough eh? At least you did not cut and paste your rant so we had to read the same whine twice.
Would you care to display your evidence? I completely agree that VoTG has been collecting dust, but at the expense of Gamers games? Do you really think we don't have VoTG in all of our hands right now because they have published other games the past couple years?
I think it contributes. I think if they had of had the enthusiasm and desire to get VotG out in a timely manner than it would have been.

And it was a single rant, not a tantrum.
 

Tater

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I appreciate Keith's post and MMPs decision to assume that ASL material will hit it's P# and therefore wait till it's ready to go (or nearly so) before posting.
But that is just a perception fix...ASL products will still come out at a snails pace compared to just about every other game series MMP is producing. So we won't see it on the pre-order page till it's ready to go...big whoop...so instead of seeing it on the pre-order page for 2 years we will wait the same two years before it gets to the pre-order page. Nothing actually changes relative to the speed with which ASL products are released.
 

Chas Argent

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But if the MMP belief is that ASL will go like hotcakes why the hell does it still take show incredibly long for an ASL product to come out?
Because none of the ASL products which have gone up for pre-order have truly been "ready" to sell. Few Returned is the last one to go up and it was not really "ready" in the sense that future additions will be.

You are correct when you assert that the original purpose of the pre-order system was to gauge interest in a project before committing to print, but I think a batch of scenarios on some obscure Russian/Italian actions which shot past its pre-order number in like 3 days has convinced MMP that ASL is going to sell, period.

Journal 8, probably coming up fairly soon, may well be the first "model" of this.

That's my guess, anyway.
 

ScoobySnacks

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Maybe Adam and Dean are just more efficient in laying out the final products. I'm not sure if the ASL playtesting is so much more in depth, or its the complexity of writing the added rules for VoTG compared to any other games rulebook. The ASL MMP guys are just slower in turning around a new design then the other designers.
On the flip side, VoTG is not at the top of the list on the preorder page so IGS has its issues also.
 

styrk

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Is MMP Raising the bar ?????

Do MMP Mean that we will never expiriens situations where it goes years from annonsment on that Pre list until the product is out.

Inreresting, verry interesting

this can only lead to 3 thing
1 we need to wait longer for product geting on the list :lier:
2 None ASL product will have verry long Pre order time :devil:
3 MMP are going to put out more :vsign:

But this does't reflex on my initial mail
the ration ASL VS none ALS list

there is now a large number of none ASL product one the list (close to 70% (in number not in workload)of all ASL product published from MMP)

And then there is dicusions on the amount of time MMP put in to SK??
and J2 taking up Print time :clown:

With the view of many on this forum that MMP is the only true ASL publisher (the REAL stuff) AND IT IS.
MMP has a great resonebilety to bring new ASL stuff to a large amount of players.

From what I understand module 13 HP has bin done play testing for some time
witch means that there is not much need for a lot of ASL work on it

reprint in DB ???

will not mension the other module that have bin on the list for YEARS ...:bored:.


This shoud be straint forward publishiing work :whist::hmmm:

Sorry for ansking but when I look on the new preorder list with 4 new none ASL product added to a allready long list well I had to ask....

Styrk
 

Tater

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Because none of the ASL products which have gone up for pre-order have truly been "ready" to sell. Few Returned is the last one to go up and it was not really "ready" in the sense that future additions will be.
When it goes up for pre-order is just a "dog & pony show"....it doesn't really impact the agonizingly slow pace at which ASL products are released. The wait is still the same...

Again using VotG as an example...the wait was 2 years...whether they put it up on Pre-order this month or two years ago (like they did) the wait would be the same.

So, the question remains...if MMP knows that ASL will sell why does it take so long to get ASL stuff out?
 
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