Any comments on MMP'S pre order list
- Thread starter styrk
- Start date
'Ol Fezziwig
Repressed Dissident
Somewhere (CSW?) Brian Youse said there is ASL material ready for preordering, but since the ASL stuff hits so fast, they're going to hold off listing it until they reach a higher degree of completion so as to minimise the "votg syndrome".
Don't worry..be happy (you're not a CWB fan...)
Don't worry..be happy (you're not a CWB fan...)
Neither am I, so could someone explain what exactly the big row is about in MMP's CSW folder? Obviously people are upset about something, but I can't really see what it is.
Tater
Elder Member
I think they caught Perry and Youse swapping thongs again.
i pre-ordered everythig they put up 
I understand their stance on the ASL stuff. And honestly I would rather they put them up closer to actualyl shipping than have them out there for years. Esepcially if it is items they know are going to hit the P# regardless.
I understand their stance on the ASL stuff. And honestly I would rather they put them up closer to actualyl shipping than have them out there for years. Esepcially if it is items they know are going to hit the P# regardless.
rdw5150
it's just a game
"Neither am I, so could someone explain what exactly the big row is about in MMP's CSW folder? Obviously people are upset about something, but I can't really see what it is."
In a nut shell, they are coming out with sort of a re-print of a CWBS game, Barren Victory II (I think is the title). Instead of 2 maps it will have 4, instead of the usual 1/2" counters they will be 5/8", and there will be some sort of other rules included that are not CWBS (a second set of rules along with the CWBS standard rule).
So some were pissed that the map is now four map sheets, the counters will be larger and that there is a second set of rules, changing the system (if you use the rules).
That is how I understood it anyway..... seemed much to do about nothing, but then again that is probably what the CWBS people think about the Bridge TEM issue.......
as far as comments on the MMP P#, I find it very difficult to get excited about games that go on a P# when nothing comes off.
<SHRUG>
YMMV, but pump some stuff out (even if its NOT ASL) and I would be more excited about "P#ing" games. But the P# list just keeps growing with little or no movement. There are a couple of titles I am interested in and will pick up, but I am not at all "excited".......
Peace
Roger
In a nut shell, they are coming out with sort of a re-print of a CWBS game, Barren Victory II (I think is the title). Instead of 2 maps it will have 4, instead of the usual 1/2" counters they will be 5/8", and there will be some sort of other rules included that are not CWBS (a second set of rules along with the CWBS standard rule).
So some were pissed that the map is now four map sheets, the counters will be larger and that there is a second set of rules, changing the system (if you use the rules).
That is how I understood it anyway..... seemed much to do about nothing, but then again that is probably what the CWBS people think about the Bridge TEM issue.......
as far as comments on the MMP P#, I find it very difficult to get excited about games that go on a P# when nothing comes off.
<SHRUG>
YMMV, but pump some stuff out (even if its NOT ASL) and I would be more excited about "P#ing" games. But the P# list just keeps growing with little or no movement. There are a couple of titles I am interested in and will pick up, but I am not at all "excited".......
Peace
Roger
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rdw5150
it's just a game
"I understand their stance on the ASL stuff. And honestly I would rather they put them up closer to actualyl shipping than have them out there for years. "
I agree! I would rather them be totally done with it before posting it......
In the short term it may seem like they are not working on ASL, but when stuff starts getting printed right after it hits the P# (as how it was suppose to run in the first place), people will quite pissing and moaning about games sitting with the P# met for years....
my thoughts anyway
Peace
Roger
I agree! I would rather them be totally done with it before posting it......
In the short term it may seem like they are not working on ASL, but when stuff starts getting printed right after it hits the P# (as how it was suppose to run in the first place), people will quite pissing and moaning about games sitting with the P# met for years....
my thoughts anyway
Peace
Roger
'Ol Fezziwig
Repressed Dissident
The map issue=more space, which for some is an issue since absent recording/tearing down/re-setting up, leaving a game setup is the best option, but four RB-sized maps is a major space commitment.
The counter size increase prevents utilisation (or, at the very least, hampers) across the 15 extant games, mostly amongst system counters. There were rumours (I've no recollection as to the founded/unfounded nature of them at this point) that the new system counters were not going to be compatible with prior CWB fare. The counters, in keeping with the developers' predilection for flashy over functional, are a departure from the system norm.
The rules, well, a game marketed as a CWB game, a continuation of the Gamers original series, being fiddled with outside the normal CWB channels (even if it will be compatible with CWB, as they plan on including the current CWB rules) raises the hackles of the series faithful.
Add to the mix the hostility and lack of patience or understanding of the design team towards the faithful series players in their responses to legitimate questions and concerns...well, the smell of revolt hangs heavy in the air.
I won't even get into the cost of the thing...
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ScoobySnacks
Member
I think its better they hold off on ASL products until they are ready to be sent to the printers. It sounds like both Gamers and IGS games are ready to go to the printers once they hit their preorders while ASL is still in design when the preorders are hit. It makes ASL games sit on the preorder list long after they hit their numbers while the other lines appear to drop off the list faster, at least giving the impression that other games are holding up the ASL line.
rdw5150
it's just a game
Hi!
Glad a CWBS guy chimed in (I have played it, but am not a dedicated fan)….
I agree with the space issue and as I stated on CSW, I am not wild about 5/8” counters….. (I had not even thought about system counters). But how would they not include system counters if the game is a stand alone game?
As far as the “extra” rules they did state they would be in addition to the system rules, so if the player wants to play the CWBS game he can or the “other” rules set (correct?).
“Add to the mix the hostility and lack of patience or understanding of the design team towards the faithful series players in their responses to legitimate questions and concerns”
This surprises you how? I was also a little surprised at the attitude. They had to have known this was gonna raise a stink and seemed unprepared for the backlash and (IMHO) were at least a little snotty…..
<SHRUG>
then again maybe that was my perspective……
for me, the large map is by far the biggest problem as I do not have the space……
but considering how long it has taken to get Case Blue and South Mountain out the door, we do not have to worry for a while….
(and it is a pricey bugger too)…………
Though I have to admit I had to at least chuckle as now maybe some of the Gamers people understand how we feel when the system is “messed with”……
Peace
Roger
Glad a CWBS guy chimed in (I have played it, but am not a dedicated fan)….
I agree with the space issue and as I stated on CSW, I am not wild about 5/8” counters….. (I had not even thought about system counters). But how would they not include system counters if the game is a stand alone game?
As far as the “extra” rules they did state they would be in addition to the system rules, so if the player wants to play the CWBS game he can or the “other” rules set (correct?).
“Add to the mix the hostility and lack of patience or understanding of the design team towards the faithful series players in their responses to legitimate questions and concerns”
This surprises you how? I was also a little surprised at the attitude. They had to have known this was gonna raise a stink and seemed unprepared for the backlash and (IMHO) were at least a little snotty…..
<SHRUG>
then again maybe that was my perspective……
for me, the large map is by far the biggest problem as I do not have the space……
but considering how long it has taken to get Case Blue and South Mountain out the door, we do not have to worry for a while….
(and it is a pricey bugger too)…………
Though I have to admit I had to at least chuckle as now maybe some of the Gamers people understand how we feel when the system is “messed with”……
Peace
Roger
'Ol Fezziwig
Repressed Dissident
They are, but like many other gamers,
, the system counters are rarely punched after a certain point because we have them Plano'ed already. Given the wonderful diversity of the counter palette (esp the CSA extensions!), merely larger counters could be seen as a minor issue. The issue, and I may be mistaken, is that the new system counters, while probably functionally the same or similiar, will not be the same as the existing ones. That would make mixing the two clunky. Absolutely, I think the fear may be of it creeping in to the system as a whole, which, with minor exceptions, has not been under siege as a 'broken' or 'in need of repair' system. It might well be an unfounded fear, but it is a legitimate concern for guys who've plugged along for 15 or so games.
Given past examples of certain guys' behaviour, it really didn't, though the complete lack of tact in dealing with the target audience is certainly appalling and, IMHuO, stupid, in dealing with potential/past/existing customers. Please note this behaviour is not from any MMP principle, but elements of the design/development team.
Well, I do bring my ASL hypersensitivity to my Gamers fix...
Tater
Elder Member
That sort of defeats the whole purpose of the P# system doesn't it? I mean the reason to have it up on pre-order is to see if there is even a desire for the product BEFORE investing time and resources in development.
The problem isn't the pre-orders...the problem is that MMP is trying to do to much...they are trying to be a full-blown game company with a "ma & pa shop" budget, staff and culture. They started out as an ASL company and never fully realized that potential before branching off into everything else. They have never recovered from over-extending themselves...the perpetual pre-order syndrome is just the visible symptom of permanent over-extension.
That isn't how the P# works...the idea is that you don't make the commitment to the product until after you see that there is a market for said product. The problem is that the resources for getting to work on the product after the P# is hit are very limited...AND...relative to ASL...other products are easier and quicker to get to market so ASL keeps getting bumped down the que.
Bob Holmstrom
Senior Member
And to add another point to Tater's comments...and more profitable than ASL.
I like the fact that MMP is becoming a full fledged game company like GMT. What it means for ASL, i don't know. It certainly can't slow down production of ASL stuff any more than it is.
I like the fact that MMP is becoming a full fledged game company like GMT. What it means for ASL, i don't know. It certainly can't slow down production of ASL stuff any more than it is.
'Ol Fezziwig
Repressed Dissident
I don't think anyone would question the demand for any ASL product. In the case of ASL, they need to be further along the lines of The Gamers material and have a product ready to be sent to the printers the day it hits its target. It appears that is what they are attempting to do.
ScoobySnacks
Member
I don't see where other products really push ASL down the list. Gamers games are designed, setup and proofed by non ASL MMP guys. Same with the IGS line and Mike R's games. Even the game in design with Ken (who is sort of MMP) does not really have the involvement of the MMP ASL guys. The real involvement and time for the non ASL games with MMP employee's is in the packaging, web site updates and shipping. Most of that should be independant of ASL product layout. Operations is also handled by someone not involved with ASL. Where in the process are ASL products delayed? I saw AP3 get shipped as soon as it came in, the IGS game was shipped after the ASL game. Maybe you can argue with the printers, but it sounds like the turnaround time is quicker on that end and for VoTG for instance, the delay in this product is not with the printing, but getting it to the printer. Meaning it is still in design and layout which is done by people not directly involved with most (if not all) of that work for other game lines. I have never seen Dean, Mike or Adam's names mentioned in relation to ASL, so I don't see the big holdup in ASL products based on the other lines of games.
'Ol Fezziwig
Repressed Dissident
...shockingly, the 'new rules' are in the 'notes stage' ????? Doesn't bode well for a proper playtest prior to release...:hush:
rdw5150
it's just a game
Tate,
cruise on over to the MMP web site and read the P# system.:nuts:
They state that games would be (paraphrasing) close to being done before put on P#. If they are trying something new or not certain that a product is going to make it, fine put it on earlier, but change the "policy". But as has been said what there *any* doubt VotG was gonna hit the P#. Wait until its laid out (or almost laid out) before adding it so it does not sit there for 2 years.....
I do agree wholeheartedly with you about MMP doing too much. I commented about this when AOO was still in gaming purgatory.....
As I said I just do not get all fired up when I see stuff go up on the P# as I know its going to be a long time before its produced…… Though I am at least a little fired up about the Burma/China theater game….. it looks yummy….. though space will be a problem
Peace
Roger
cruise on over to the MMP web site and read the P# system.:nuts:
They state that games would be (paraphrasing) close to being done before put on P#. If they are trying something new or not certain that a product is going to make it, fine put it on earlier, but change the "policy". But as has been said what there *any* doubt VotG was gonna hit the P#. Wait until its laid out (or almost laid out) before adding it so it does not sit there for 2 years.....
I do agree wholeheartedly with you about MMP doing too much. I commented about this when AOO was still in gaming purgatory.....
As I said I just do not get all fired up when I see stuff go up on the P# as I know its going to be a long time before its produced…… Though I am at least a little fired up about the Burma/China theater game….. it looks yummy….. though space will be a problem
Peace
Roger
kdalton
Senior Member
This will be my one and only post on the issue.
MMP has made the decision to get ASL products much closer to being "ready for prime time" before putting them on the list. When we first started the preorder system, we had no idea how our customers would respond, and how fast some items might climb. It was new territory for us.
Certainly, our initial batch of offerings took their time to hit their number, including ASL stuff (Operation Veritable). As time has past, the delay between "post and ASL item for preorder" and "ASL item hits number" has diminished considerably. Witness Valor of the Guards and Few Returned. Yes, we know this had something to do with subject matter. But we also can be confident ASL stuff is going to hit.
Instead of continuing the pattern of post it-watch it make preorder number in days-finish the game we're going to try get the game mostly finished - set it for preorder - print and ship. The former was based on the early paradigm that assumed the ASL stuff would take a long time to hit. We are attempting to live by what the preorder page says.
In game publishing, as in life, if you keep doing the same old thing, you are going to get the same result. We can make this change with the confidence that an ASL item will hit the magic number in a short time.
We now have three people - Charlie Kibler, Derek Spurlock, and myself - working on ASL layout besides Brian. This *should* speed up the process.
MMP has made the decision to get ASL products much closer to being "ready for prime time" before putting them on the list. When we first started the preorder system, we had no idea how our customers would respond, and how fast some items might climb. It was new territory for us.
Certainly, our initial batch of offerings took their time to hit their number, including ASL stuff (Operation Veritable). As time has past, the delay between "post and ASL item for preorder" and "ASL item hits number" has diminished considerably. Witness Valor of the Guards and Few Returned. Yes, we know this had something to do with subject matter. But we also can be confident ASL stuff is going to hit.
Instead of continuing the pattern of post it-watch it make preorder number in days-finish the game we're going to try get the game mostly finished - set it for preorder - print and ship. The former was based on the early paradigm that assumed the ASL stuff would take a long time to hit. We are attempting to live by what the preorder page says.
In game publishing, as in life, if you keep doing the same old thing, you are going to get the same result. We can make this change with the confidence that an ASL item will hit the magic number in a short time.
We now have three people - Charlie Kibler, Derek Spurlock, and myself - working on ASL layout besides Brian. This *should* speed up the process.
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rdw5150
it's just a game
"I don't see where other products really push ASL down the list"
I think that the more they try to do, the more *everything* gets slowed down.... take a look at Gamers stuff, Case Blue and South Mountain have been "done" for a while. MMP staff still have to be involved at many levels and when you have three guys working full time at their "part time" business (this after working full time and having families), they can only do so much. Just seems to be a lot of irons in their fire and they get spread pretty thin....
Peace
Roger
I think that the more they try to do, the more *everything* gets slowed down.... take a look at Gamers stuff, Case Blue and South Mountain have been "done" for a while. MMP staff still have to be involved at many levels and when you have three guys working full time at their "part time" business (this after working full time and having families), they can only do so much. Just seems to be a lot of irons in their fire and they get spread pretty thin....
Peace
Roger