Anecdotal support for effectiveness of 'track' armour on Shermans

WBRP

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While doing my watchkeeping shift today at the local Military Museum, I read this article:
http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vol10/no1/09-mantle%20zaporzan-eng.asp
...which has anecdotal evidence that the track pieces welded onto Shermans did work to prevent penetrations...albeit as a temporary measure, seeing as they were blown away warding off the hit. Maybe the way to represent this is SSR that has a Sherman start as a Jumbo, but have it get replaced by a regular one after surviving a hit by an Original TK >16 gun?

The same article also notes that placing a sandbag on the bottom of the fighting compartment dropped casualties to Teller mines.

Also has nice notes on dedicated FOO and the usefulness of smoke screens on the attack.

Part I of the article did not seem to have much in the way of juicy ASL-ish tidbits, but I only just skimmed it.
 

Paul M. Weir

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I have read various conflicting reports about the advantages or lack of with the use of various ad-hoc armour.

US reports on the external use of sandbags vary from somewhat useful to purely psychological. The Sandbag armour was only supposed to reduce the effect of HEAT (PF or Psk).

German experiments with the use of extra tracks suggested that more often than not it increased the effectiveness of some types of AP rounds. The study suggested it acted like the cap on APC or APCBC and tended to turn the round to a more perpendicular angle where the armour was sloped or just not at right angles to the line of fire. On the other hand, right to the end, German Panthers, Tiger I and II had hangers for tracks on the (thinner) side of the turret. This is distinct from face hardened additional armour added to the front of Pz III, Pz IV and some StuG III and sides of Pz IVD. The Germans sometimes added concrete to some of the front of StuG III & IV. Overall the German evidence is not conclusive either way.

US tanks in the later stages of the Pacific war added spaced armour consisting of planks to standing man accessible parts and grills (from light concrete reinforcing mesh) over the top surfaces. The planks prevented Japanese magnetic mines from sticking to the armour. The grills gave some stand-off distance from the thinner top armour against simple blast type (non-HEAT) charges thrown onto the tanks. These measures were regarded as effective. The British used grills (in Burma) as well, but not planks as far as I know.

To bring the hull of a British Sherman up to Jumbo armour you would have to add about 50mm of armour plate. That seems too much protection. Maybe a SSR to the effect that if a kill would otherwise have occurred then roll a die. On a 1,2,3 (or 1,2) then the kill is ignored. Treat (possible) immobilisation and unconfirmed kills as normal. Make a side note that the extra armour for that facing is gone (like Sz).

The internal sandbags vs. AT mines would only effect the CS number. Maybe increase the CS number by 1 or change red CS to black CS.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Great find, WBRP. I also like this para:

In nearly every engagement after D-Day, Rad made copious use of smoke, not only to give his squadron an advantage over the enemy, but also to afford his own soldiers a degree of added protection. So convinced was he of its usefulness that he concluded after Operation Atlantic: “The practical use of smoke must never be forgotten particularly in attack. A sqn [squadron] shoot of smoke produces a most effective screen. Serious consideration to the installing of rear emission smoke on tks [tanks] should be considered.”
 

jrv

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Time on Target had an article and rules on improvised armor such as sandbags, tracks, etc. As I recall, the result was generally a 1 AF increase.

This is from the Wikipedia article on the Sherman:

"Field improvisations included placing sandbags, spare track links, concrete, wire mesh, or even wood for increased protection against shaped-charge rounds, even though it had little effect. Mounting sandbags around a tank had little effect against high-velocity anti-tank gunfire, but was thought to provide standoff protection against HEAT weapons, primarily the German Panzerfaust and Panzerschreck. By 1945, it was rare to see a Sherman without any field improvisations. In the only study known to have been done to test the use of sandbags, on March 9, 1945, officers of the 1st Armored Group tested standard Panzerfaust 60s against sandbagged M4s; shots against the side blew away the sandbags and still penetrated the side armour, whereas shots fired at an angle against the front plate blew away some of the sandbags but failed to penetrate the armour."

This would suggest that a 1AF increase might even be too much for AP, but for HEAT there should be some effect, perhaps a Dud on a 10-12.

JR
 
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Augie

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TOT#1 had the SSR for Supplemental Armor, and it was fairly detailed (1+ full columns of SSR). I find it interesting, and use it whenever I can in my SASL playings. A crib notes version is below:

2.1 Types of Supplemental Armor: Soft=Sandbags or Track Links. Concrete=Concrete. Steel Applique=Field added armor plate. Tanks with Schurzen can have Supplemental Armor on the Front Hull only.
2.11 US/Brit use is 1944-45. German is 1942-45. Only Americans & British/Commonwealth/Free French (LT, MT, HT, AG & TD) and German (MT, AG; EXC: NA for PzVs) AFVs can use it.
2.2 SOFT ARMOR: There are Type F and Type F-S. Type F is on Front Hull [EXC: Front upper-superstructure of NT AFVs]. Type F-S only used by Americans and is same as Type F plus Hull & Turret/Upper Hull Sides. RF is 1.3. Germans use is 1942-43.
2.21 EFFECTS: Hit on Soft Armor is: HEAT/SCW = one level AF increase; dud on DR=>11 [EXC: dud on DR=>10 if Front] (Specific Collateral allowed if not DR12). AP/APCR<50mm = TK# lowered by -1. ATMM CC DRM = -1 if any Soft Armor. Any Ord. attack = -1 DRM for any Shock TC.
2.211 CRITICAL HITS: Soft Armor effects are NA for CH.
2.22 MOBILITY: Soft Type F= -1 MP allotment, +1 ESB DRM, +2 Tons Weight. Soft Type F-S = -2 MP Allotment, +1 ESB DRM, +4 Tons Weight
2.3 CONCRETE: US and Germans only. Front Hull only [EXC: Front upper-superstructure for NT AFVs]. US RF is 1.5. German RF is 1.6 and can only be used on StuGIIIG, StuGIIIG(L), StuH42, & StuH42(L).
2.31 EFFECTS: HEAT/SCW= +1 to AF; Dud on DR=>11 (Specific Collateral allowed if not DR12). Any Ord. attack = -1 DRM for any Shock TC.
2.311 CRITICAL HITS: Concrete effects are NA for CH.
2.32 MOBILITY: Concrete = -1 MP allotment, +1 ESB DRM, +2 Tons Weight.
2.4 STEEL APPLIQUE ARMOR: US and Germans [EXC: NA for PzIVH and PzIVJ] only. Front Hull only [EXC: Front upper-superstructure for NT AFVs]; PzIIIG, PzIIIH, & PzIIIJ may also have Front Turret. US RF is 1.5. German RF is 1.4.
2.41 EFFECTS: Any Ord. attack = AF increase by one level; -1 DRM for any Shock TC.
2.42 MOBILITY: Steel Applique = -1 MP allotment, +1 ESB DRM, +2 Tons Weight.
 
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Tater

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TOT#1 had the SSR for Supplemental Armor, and it was fairly detailed (1+ full columns of SSR). I find it interesting, and use it whenever I can in my SASL playings. A crib notes version is below:

2.1 Types of Supplemental Armor: Soft=Sandbags or Track Links. Concrete=Concrete. Steel Applique=Field added armor plate. Tanks with Schurzen can have Supplemental Armor on the Front Hull only.
2.11 US/Brit use is 1944-45. German is 1942-45. Only Americans & British/Commonwealth/Free French (LT, MT, HT, AG & TD) and German (MT, AG; EXC: NA for PzVs) AFVs can use it.
2.2 SOFT ARMOR: There are Type F and Type F-S. Type F is on Front Hull [EXC: Front upper-superstructure of NT AFVs]. Type F-S only used by Americans and is same as Type F plus Hull & Turret/Upper Hull Sides. RF is 1.3. Germans use is 1942-43.
2.21 EFFECTS: Hit on Soft Armor is: HEAT/SCW = one level AF increase; dud on DR=>11 [EXC: dud on DR=>10 if Front] (Specific Collateral allowed if not DR12). AP/APCR<50mm = TK# lowered by -1. ATMM CC DRM = -1 if any Soft Armor. Any Ord. attack = -1 DRM for any Shock TC.
2.211 CRITICAL HITS: Soft Armor effects are NA for CH.
2.22 MOBILITY: Soft Type F= -1 MP allotment, +1 ESB DRM, +2 Tons Weight. Soft Type F-S = -2 MP Allotment, +1 ESB DRM, +4 Tons Weight
2.3 CONCRETE: US and Germans only. Front Hull only [EXC: Front upper-superstructure for NT AFVs]. US RF is 1.5. German RF is 1.6 and can only be used on StuGIIIG, StuGIIIG(L), StuH42, & StuH42(L).
2.31 EFFECTS: HEAT/SCW= +1 to AF; Dud on DR=>11 (Specific Collateral allowed if not DR12). Any Ord. attack = -1 DRM for any Shock TC.
2.311 CRITICAL HITS: Concrete effects are NA for CH.
2.32 MOBILITY: Concrete = -1 MP allotment, +1 ESB DRM, +2 Tons Weight.
2.4 STEEL APPLIQUE ARMOR: US and Germans [EXC: NA for PzIVH and PzIVJ] only. Front Hull only [EXC: Front upper-superstructure for NT AFVs]; PzIIIG, PzIIIH, & PzIIIJ may also have Front Turret. US RF is 1.5. German RF is 1.4.
2.41 EFFECTS: Any Ord. attack = AF increase by one level; -1 DRM for any Shock TC.
2.42 MOBILITY: Steel Applique = -1 MP allotment, +1 ESB DRM, +2 Tons Weight.
Hmmm, seems to be very low bang for the buck. Hardly seems worth the effort but hey, whatever floats one's boat.
 

Augie

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Hmmm, seems to be very low bang for the buck. Hardly seems worth the effort but hey, whatever floats one's boat.
Apparently that was how Patton and few other high ranking officers thought as well. There were various unit orders not to put sandbags on tanks, since it put wear and strain on the engines and transmissions (info also from TOT#1).
 

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Apparently that was how Patton and few other high ranking officers thought as well. There were various unit orders not to put sandbags on tanks, since it put wear and strain on the engines and transmissions (info also from TOT#1).
I was talking from a rules/SSR point of view...but, I suspect it was also low pay-off in reality also.
 

Vinnie

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To a certain extent it was a psychological thing. If tankers thought they were safer they would take more risks and maybe get more done. Sort of the way s green unit can achieve more than a veteran one because they don't appreciate the risks.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Apparently that was how Patton and few other high ranking officers thought as well. There were various unit orders not to put sandbags on tanks, since it put wear and strain on the engines and transmissions (info also from TOT#1).
Patton also thought it was good practice to get junior officers killed because it was good for the morale of the enlisted men. Not to mention slapping soldiers with post traumatic stress disorder as a "cure". So I think you can discount General Patton's theories on one or two things for what they're worth.

Vinnie said:
To a certain extent it was a psychological thing. If tankers thought they were safer they would take more risks and maybe get more done. Sort of the way s green unit can achieve more than a veteran one because they don't appreciate the risks.
Exactly. Based on comments I've read in the usual histories, Canadian tankers didn't care if their transmission and drive train lasted all the way to Berlin; they were more concerned about getting around the next bend in the road without an 88 AP round coming through the front glacis.
 

L'Emperor

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Not to mention slapping soldiers with post traumatic stress disorder as a "cure". So I think you can discount General Patton's theories on one or two things for what they're worth.
Actually this was probably better than the existing US idea. Seperate the man from the event and his buddies made things worse. A very short time off line then get him back to what REALLY mattered (his commrades) led to better outcomes.
 

Michael Dorosh

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Actually this was probably better than the existing US idea. Seperate the man from the event and his buddies made things worse. A very short time off line then get him back to what REALLY mattered (his commrades) led to better outcomes.
You're probably right; I doubt anyone was really far advanced in treating neuropsychiatric casualties (the term the Canadian Army was using at the time).

Tongues in cheeks aside, I scoured the net for the photo of a glowering Patton stalking off after reprimanding a Sherman driver for "over-protecting" his M4, ready to spray pith on the forum with regards to his needless critique. On reflection, I suppose it is a greyer area than all that - the relative speed of the Sherman, especially one with a gyrostabilizer and a crew trained in its use, in an area with terrain permitting maneuver, may have offered some advantages, but doctrinally, the tank destroyers should have been operating in such an area in any event. All very easy to type out from the comfort of my computer room, in my flannel pajamas, 65 years after the fact.
 

L'Emperor

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You're probably right; I doubt anyone was really far advanced in treating neuropsychiatric casualties (the term the Canadian Army was using at the time).

Tongues in cheeks aside, I scoured the net for the photo of a glowering Patton stalking off after reprimanding a Sherman driver for "over-protecting" his M4, ready to spray pith on the forum with regards to his needless critique. On reflection, I suppose it is a greyer area than all that - the relative speed of the Sherman, especially one with a gyrostabilizer and a crew trained in its use, in an area with terrain permitting maneuver, may have offered some advantages, but doctrinally, the tank destroyers should have been operating in such an area in any event. All very easy to type out from the comfort of my computer room, in my flannel pajamas, 65 years after the fact.
If you put sand in the pockets of my pajamas and told me my balls would be better protected, I would probably do more! :)
 

Michael Dorosh

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If you put sand in the pockets of my pajamas and told me my balls would be better protected, I would probably do more! :)
If you're willing to conduct an experiment regarding the protective qualities of your pajamas with an 88mm shell fired at 3,280 feet per second, you're a better man than I am.

Actually, I'm willing to stipulate the latter in just about any circumstance, if it lets me try out the former. I'll even let you wear two layers, which I think you'll find is not only extremely generous of me to an absolute fault, but favourable to your proposition in the extreme. To add the proverbial icing to the cake, you may select weather conditions of your choosing. I'm willing to stipulate further any granularity of sand you like, and you may stuff the pockets of both pairs to maximum capacity.

Shall we say a range of - 1000 metres? ;)

We'll need a suitable definition of "more" of course. So before the first shot from the 88, we'll measure the number of 5/8" counters you manage to clip in the space of 60 seconds with the clipping implement of your choosing. We fire the 88 at your balls, with of course the sand in your pockets, and then repeat the test, measuring the number of 5/8" counters you can clip after absorbing the impact of the 88mm round, in the same span of time. I'll be generous again and give you 60 seconds from the time of impact of the round to recover your wits.
 

Martin Mayers

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Out of interest...are the logs here for protection or for something else ??

 

Paul M. Weir

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The logs would have served a dual purpose. They could be used as unditching beams, Finland is very wet and boggy. They would also add considerable protection against Soviet ATR. The 30mm side armour of the Pz/StuG III/IV was vulnerable to the Soviet ATRs at short range. Notice also the large amount of concrete on the front superstructure.
 

Martin Mayers

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The logs would have served a dual purpose. They could be used as unditching beams, Finland is very wet and boggy. They would also add considerable protection against Soviet ATR. The 30mm side armour of the Pz/StuG III/IV was vulnerable to the Soviet ATRs at short range. Notice also the large amount of concrete on the front superstructure.
Ahh....
Excuse my ignorance...how do you know it would have served in Finland ??
 

Martin Mayers

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Uhm, building a camp fire when they stopped for the night?
I presume that was a joke...
But to evidence my thought pattern...I did wonder if it was used for chopping up to start a fire under the engine ala Eastern Front.....
:)
 

Paul M. Weir

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Ahh....
Excuse my ignorance...how do you know it would have served in Finland ??
I don't know if that actual one served in Finland during the war but the "Ps 531-44" number with the "Ps" indicating a Finnish vehicle number.
I think the overall green is a postwar scheme, though I could well be wrong.
 
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