And then what happens? Berserk enters into hex with HIP unit.

jrv

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During a Night scenario, a Berserk squad is charging across Open Ground towards its KEU target. What it doesn't realize is that a HIP squad is in the Location it just entered. No other unit besides the Berserk unit has LOS to that Open Ground hex. And then what happens?

As best I read the rules, the HIP squad is forced to fire TPBF against the Berserk unit [A8.312]. Because the Berserk unit is not Good Order, this does not cause loss of HIP, nor does Detection [A12.15] because it requires a "non-berserk enemy infantry/non-charging Cavalry unit". Because the DEFENDER did not become Known, the Berserk unit (if it survives) continues its charge against its original target, leaving a group of rather startled DEFENDERS wondering what just happened. Sound right?

Note that the same sequence would happen if the DEFENDERS were concealed instead of HIP. It just sounds cooler if they are HIP.

JR
 

Vinnie

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I'm not so certain about the detection position since A12.15 talks of attempting to enter rather than entering. But I think you are right. Funky!
 

klasmalmstrom

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...Because the Berserk unit is not Good Order, this does not cause loss of HIP, nor does Detection [A12.15] because it requires a "non-berserk enemy infantry/non-charging Cavalry unit"....
Though A15.431 sort of implies that the concealed/HIP unit would be revealed when the Berserk enters its Location.

A15.431:
"...Similarly, if it moves into a concealed enemy’s Location and reveals it (12.15) while charging another unit, the berserker must remain in this hex and attempt to eliminate all enemy units therein instead...."
 

Faded 8-1

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The ?/HIP unit could just forfeit ?/HIP to keep the Berserker trapped there, if necessary.
 

Craig Kennedy

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Though A15.431 sort of implies that the concealed/HIP unit would be revealed when the Berserk enters its Location.
I was just studying up on the consequences of a HW or Berserk unit wandering into a concealed/HIP unit and I ran across this thread. Since A12.15 specifies it must be a non-berserk to require the defender to reveal a unit (even then, only one) and then later excepts all units able to enter an enemy occupied hex during the MPh (which of course includes HW), I interpret 15.431 to mean that if the defender opts to reveal himself, then the berserker (or HW unit) must stay, otherwise it keeps going.

Curious what you guys decided about this.
 

turlusiflu

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I think that the difference is that a non-berserk unit is obligued to step back, and a berserk unit is not. Both, nevertheless, cause revealing of a ?/HIP unit.
 

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I was just studying up on the consequences of a HW or Berserk unit wandering into a concealed/HIP unit and I ran across this thread. Since A12.15 specifies it must be a non-berserk to require the defender to reveal a unit (even then, only one) and then later excepts all units able to enter an enemy occupied hex during the MPh (which of course includes HW), I interpret 15.431 to mean that if the defender opts to reveal himself, then the berserker (or HW unit) must stay, otherwise it keeps going.

Curious what you guys decided about this.
It's kind of difficult to remain HIP (and most cases concealed) when you have to fire at a unit entering your Location; A8.312 TPBF: An armed, unbroken Infantry DEFENDER not in Melee must after all Residual-FP/minefield/OBA attacks then immediately attack any Infantry/Cavalry MMC unit that enters its Location during the MPh whether it uses Defensive First Fire, Subsequent First Fire, or FPF [EXC: A SMC with a MG/IFE already marked with a First Fire counter may not use Subsequent First Fire or FPF because it cannot use Sustained Fire; 9.3]. The caveat to this however is a unit entering your Location in Bypass of the Woods/Building obstacle you are in A12.15. I believe in this case the moving unit is only quasi-entering your Location although there is no other Location in actuality (hey it's ASL-doesn't have to make sense). :unsure::rolleyes:
 

jrv

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It's kind of difficult to remain HIP (and most cases concealed) when you have to fire at a unit entering your Location; A8.312 TPBF: An armed, unbroken Infantry DEFENDER not in Melee must after all Residual-FP/minefield/OBA attacks then immediately attack any Infantry/Cavalry MMC unit that enters its Location during the MPh whether it uses Defensive First Fire, Subsequent First Fire, or FPF [EXC: A SMC with a MG/IFE already marked with a First Fire counter may not use Subsequent First Fire or FPF because it cannot use Sustained Fire; 9.3]. The caveat to this however is a unit entering your Location in Bypass of the Woods/Building obstacle you are in A12.15. I believe in this case the moving unit is only quasi-entering your Location although there is no other Location in actuality (hey it's ASL-doesn't have to make sense). :unsure::rolleyes:
Under the concealment loss/gain table, you should find that attacking is not concealment loss if there is no GO enemy unit in LOS. The berserk enemy unit is not GO, and assuming there are no other GO enemy units around, the attack required by A8.312 does not result in loss of concealment (HIP in this case). That is what makes the situation so entertaining. The berserk enemy unit enters the HIP unit's hex. Per A8.312 the HIP unit must attack. But per the concealment loss/gain table, it does not lose concealment (HIP). The berserk unit has no closer KEU after the attack than before, so it runs off into the night charging whatever target it had in mind in the first place.

JR
 

Eagle4ty

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Under the concealment loss/gain table, you should find that attacking is not concealment loss if there is no GO enemy unit in LOS. The berserk enemy unit is not GO, and assuming there are no other GO enemy units around, the attack required by A8.312 does not result in loss of concealment (HIP in this case). That is what makes the situation so entertaining. The berserk enemy unit enters the HIP unit's hex. Per A8.312 the HIP unit must attack. But per the concealment loss/gain table, it does not lose concealment (HIP). The berserk unit has no closer KEU after the attack than before, so it runs off into the night charging whatever target it had in mind in the first place.

JR
Pretty sure the CONCEALMENT LOSS/GAIN TABLE specifies "...GOOD ORDER OR UNBROKEN..."
 

Vinnie

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Pretty sure the CONCEALMENT LOSS/GAIN TABLE specifies "...GOOD ORDER OR UNBROKEN..."
Note the Good Order is in red and the unbroken in black. The red notes apply to Good Order and that's concealment loss. Unbroken matters for concealment gain.
 

Eagle4ty

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Note the Good Order is in red and the unbroken in black. The red notes apply to Good Order and that's concealment loss. Unbroken matters for concealment gain.
You know, I'm not certain I ever consciously picked up on that?
 
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jrv

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You know, I'm not certain I ever consciously ever picked up on that?
Yes, that's why the situation can occur. Berserk (and Melee) units can prevent concealment gain, but can't cause concealment loss. I picked night because then the friendly unit can be HIP in Open Ground, which makes the whole thing more remarkable. Most time there is another enemy unit around with LOS so the concealment is lost because of the TPBF, but it is possible that there is no other enemy unit around (or at night, another enemy unit in NVR), so the HIP unit might not lose concealment.

JR
 

WuWei

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I totally agree, both from a rules perspective and from real live experience. I once charged an enemy position at night, and I wouldn't have noticed some hidden enemy soldiers shooting at me from a few meters to the side as I ran by. It was during an exercise, and I was a barely trained conscript at the time, so my situational awareness, observation skill and mental capacity probably was comparable to a berserker due to all the excitement and confusion. (Luckily, the other side consisted of confused conscripts, too.)
 

afgur

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Hi all

A12.31 states " A revealed hidden unit is totally discovered; ". Seems to me firing would reveal it.



Alan
 

jrv

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A12.31 states " A revealed hidden unit is totally discovered; ". Seems to me firing would reveal it.
Firing is not, of itself, a concealment loss activity. Only firing in LOS of a Good Order enemy unit at range ≤ 16 hexes is concealment loss. Since the berserk unit is not Good Order, it can't cause concealment (in this case HIP) loss.

Also, although A12.31 sounds awfully absolute, in fact there have been a number of Q&A allowing HIP units to be put on board concealed if they perform an action voluntarily.

q&a said:
A12.14 & A12.3
If, as A12.3 states, “Hidden Status is considered the equal of concealment except as otherwise specified,” may a hidden unit sacrifice its hidden status and become concealed “at any time,” in accordance with A12.14?
A. Yes.
A12.31 states that: “A revealed hidden unit is totally discovered; it is not placed on board beneath a “?” unless specifically stated by a rule covering that particular situation (e.g., 11.19, 12.15, 152, .153, .32, .34).”
Does “revealed” in this context refer only to the involuntarily forfeiture of hidden status (e.g., due to enemy action, overstacking, friendly OBA, etc.)? Or does it also apply to the voluntary forfeiture of hidden status?
A. Involuntary.
May a hidden unit not in enemy LOS voluntarily sacrifice its hidden status, and become concealed in order to perform some action (e.g., Deploy during the RPh, Entrench during the PFPh, Place SMOKE during the MPh, voluntarily break a MMC in order to rout with a still concealed/hidden leader, transfer a weapon during the APh, etc.), or to undertake no activity at all during that phase? Or is the unit “totally discovered” the moment it sacrifices its hidden status under these circumstances? May a hidden unit in enemy LOS voluntarily sacrifice its hidden status, and become concealed in order to perform a non-concealment loss activity, or no activity at all during that phase? Or is the unit “totally discovered” the moment it sacrifices its hidden status under these circumstances?
A. The former in both cases.
This might be a case where the unit has to be put on board concealed, but it will not lose its concealment as far as I understand.

JR
 
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von Marwitz

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Under the concealment loss/gain table, you should find that attacking is not concealment loss if there is no GO enemy unit in LOS. The berserk enemy unit is not GO, and assuming there are no other GO enemy units around, the attack required by A8.312 does not result in loss of concealment (HIP in this case). That is what makes the situation so entertaining. The berserk enemy unit enters the HIP unit's hex. Per A8.312 the HIP unit must attack. But per the concealment loss/gain table, it does not lose concealment (HIP). The berserk unit has no closer KEU after the attack than before, so it runs off into the night charging whatever target it had in mind in the first place.

JR
Now this is some ASL finery!

I love it!

von Marwitz
 
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