An idea why the German Army has such mystique.

Honza

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So, we have talked about this before. The notion that the German Army of WWII is somehow 'great' or 'mysterious'. It has this reputation that refuses to be shaken. Well, I was thinking about this the other day and thought of one possible reason why.

Here is my idea; the German Army was 'Artistic'. It used common artistic practices to enhance itself. I know that this is a complex idea - it is difficult to explain. Let me give you an example: how does a modern music band promote itself? It uses the media to advertise itself. It uses art and design to create a great public image.

We know that the Nazis had a great propaganda machine working for them. But it is more than that; they used 'Art' to enhance their reputation. Their uniforms were immaculate. They weaved great stories about their performance in battle. They incorporated aesthetics into their weapon design. They had their eye on the art of their endeavor.

The whole Third Reich fighting the WWII thing was beautifully and deliberately crafted to seem appealing! They were Artists in their own way. Don't underestimate the power of Art. It is very subtle and influential. I've studied Art at degree level and I know its allure. Those who can manipulate art to their own ends have a huge advantage!
 

Philippe D.

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Paul, you can't just stop there! Elaborate, man - I was preparing myself to enjoy one of your detailed replies, and get only three words?

I don't know, but I would have said the idea of a relatively small country (not that small actually, Germany was and is one of the largest European countries, with the largest population barring Russia), only 20 years after having its army basically torn down and entering a huge economic depression, taking on most of Europe almost by itself - and soundly beating all opposition in a matter of weeks, at that - probably contributes a lot to that.
 

Paul M. Weir

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Oh dear. I'm only too aware about the verbosity of my posts and but when I keep it short ... :D

The Cold War.

The opinion makers and leaders in the West ... well, shall we say, didn't like the existence of the USSR. To have a chance against it, they needed extra warm bodies as speed bumps and the fruits of German industry. So by the end of the '40s there was a toning down of the efforts and rhetoric against Nazism and the German military. They were "Sons of bitches but they're our sons of bitches" type of thing, a bit like the various S. American fascists that the US regularly supported. In addition the German military had faced the Soviets and had given the US and British a such hard time, so were sought out as admired professional tutors.

So after a few years not only did the Heer get a free pass on their criminal activity (only corrected within the last 20 years or so), but the West listened to self serving German generals who brushed aside their failures as "It's all Hitler's fault". (That's another discussion) Quite frankly, they took too much at face value, gullible. Of course after a major war most in the West were sick of it and poorer. So as part of drumming up support for their Cold War stance, the Heer's reputation had some of the blood and shït washed off, the dents filled in and polished up nicely.

The generals published their memoirs, laying it on thick about how they were defeated by hordes of untermensch and Hitler. They partly filled a void of serious works on the Eastern Front. People like Obersturmbannführer Paul Schmidt aka Paul Carell could write great tales of how the valiant Nordic übermensch defended Western civilisation against the new Mongol hordes. Even I enjoyed his stuff, he could write well, but history ... :eek:. Most people's interest in history would be limited to a few 'popular' authors, rather than better but drier historical analysis, naturally, upmarket comics without the drawings (nothing wrong with that per se, people have lives to live).

To compound things, Soviet archives were closed and Soviet writers had to toe the party line. So not only was Soviet History dismissed as shallow propaganda (that judgement was partly correct) and not only were some Soviet disasters minimised or overlooked but many of the German disasters were very, very under-appreciated or forgotten. Examples include the ignoring of the size and failure of Mars and the exaggeration and almost inversion of Prokhorovka which would have shown the Soviets in a worse light. A excellent example to the opposite would be Bagration, aka Destruction of Army Group Centre, where the Germans were not just out numbered but were totally played by Soviet maskirovka, outmanoeuvred at operational level and out fought at tactical level. The scale of the German defeat and the skill of the Soviets only seems to have been appreciated from the late '70's, before then few realised how utterly curbstomped the Herr was.

In summary the ideological demonising and the "dumb Soviet brute" bigotry allied with the lack of solid documented evidence that would have shot down many of the German's exaggerations and whitewashes meant that the Germans got a half price if not a free pass on their many failures.

Sex (a bonus reel).

The marching in step, the drum rolls, the music, the torch lit processions, the phallic standards raised aloft, the whiff of Zyklon B in the air and all those pretty Hitlerjugend boys and tough sweaty Bund Deutscher Mädel all help to raise ... eh ... blood pressure. A bit like a Roman Bacchanalia, a Disco or a German Love Parade (Ooops!). That type of theatre has been the basis of ecstatic religions since the dawn of humanity and add in epileptic fits and you can explain most prophets. (The incense, the rising and kneeling, the chanting, the eating of a man's flesh while on your knees before yet another man and the altar boys are still a feature of a religion or two today).

The wish to lose control in orgasmic oblivion is part of humanity's animal nature. You see that in religion, alcohol, drugs and totalitarian societies. Apart from the sexual element there is the deep desire to abandon responsibility and have Mother/Daddy, Adolph, Mao, Donald or who ever, to take charge and don't bother your little head about anything. Simple (and usually wrong) solutions for simple people. Maybe a desire for Nirvana (oblivion) or a return to the womb. This desire to subsume yourself into the mass is rooted in our pack/herd nature as such behaviour allowed us puny tailless monkeys to utterly dominate this planet and ties in with our sex drive.

The Germans had that in spades. Honza highlighted the artistic aspect and that combined with the gross infantile and sexual messaging of the spectacles gives you the perfect seduction.

Note: My original curt response was intended to provoke thought. While my bonus reel may come across as crude and offensive, it is also intended to make people think. Whether you believe, for example, that religious rituals are divinely sourced or not, my point is to give an idea of how and why they work so well and have lasted so long with humans.
 
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21Z5M

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I was thinking after WW1 they had a small highly professional army. They enabled small unit leaders to lead. In a company structure they had two platoons commanded by NCOs. The US Army adopted some of the training the Heer used such as a team building obstacle course that stressed leadership at the lowest level.
 

Vinnie

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The German army stomped everyone else in the early war and it's easier to say "they were great" rather than "we were shit". It hurts our ego less.
Remember that the French army was the best, having defeated the Germans twenty years earlier so fit them to be beaten, that could only have happened by a superb force, right?
Additionally, the German army being a"new" force had modern uniforms and traditions. The British army still has seventeenth century ones. This did not make them better but they are more understandable to the general public.
 

21Z5M

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German doctrine was better. They examined the end of WWI and the use of combined arms. The French hadn't built armored divisions and the British were designed to hold down the empire. The two countries were still feeling the effects of the depression and not spending money on a military.
 

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The 21Z5M has some salient points, most importantly is that the German Army of WW-II adopted tactics & and procedures consistant with the chaning technology of a "modern" battlefield. That is to say, for the most part their equipment was fielded with the latest technological changes incorporated into their basic function (e.g a two way radio/intercom system in most AFVs coupled with a throat mike for tank commnders, freeing up his hands for other functions). As equipment or tactics became obsolete, the Germans were able to adust to changing tactical requirements (though at times they may have been temporarilly caught behind the proverbial eight ball by their opponents).
Additionally, the German Army relied upon oral field type orders for the most part and specifically at battalion & lower levels. This type of order relied upon the initiative and traing of junior leaders to accomplish their missions based primarilly upon their concept of their immediate commander's intent and not upon strictured orders from above. The fied operation orders also allowed junior commanders to adjust to rapidly changing circumstances on the battlefield. The training of officers (both commissioned & non-commissioned) stressed initiative based upon tested battle drills rather than a strict adherence to orders or tactical principals that had shown themselves to be outdated. Usually when this type of leadership was applied, the results were mostly positive, where ignored, almost always with dire results.
 

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I like Martin van Crefeld's book 'Kampfkraft' which explains much of the Oop's question pretty well.

von Marwitz
 

Honza

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Only seems to be available in German.
 

Proff3RTR

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Bekämpfung der Taktik
pure and simple, every man knows his job and the job two up, fighting spirit and a confidence in ones ability over the enemies, the ability to get inside the enemies thought process and be quicker than him in his reactions.
Kit was in the early years not an issue as they were generally outnumbered and in general had poorer kit. it was tactics and how they employed them, simple.
 

jrv

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And then there's the cool motto: "Die deutsche Wehrmacht: So much better than a rat's anus."

JR
 
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xenovin

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Read period newspapers. Everyone thought thier country was getting rolled next. Folks were training for trench warfare and these Germans guys were rolling them over and they really didn't understand how. The fear of Germany during first half of war was palpable. But luckily Uncle joe and sleeping giant got thier acts together
 

daniel zucker

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Oh dear. I'm only too aware about the verbosity of my posts and but when I keep it short ... :D

The Cold War.

The opinion makers and leaders in the West ... well, shall we say, didn't like the existence of the USSR. To have a chance against it, they needed extra warm bodies as speed bumps and the fruits of German industry. So by the end of the '40s there was a toning down of the efforts and rhetoric against Nazism and the German military. They were "Sons of bitches but they're our sons of bitches" type of thing, a bit like the various S. American fascists that the US regularly supported. In addition the German military had faced the Soviets and had given the US and British a such hard time, so were sought out as admired professional tutors.

So after a few years not only did the Heer get a free pass on their criminal activity (only corrected within the last 20 years or so), but the West listened to self serving German generals who brushed aside their failures as "It's all Hitler's fault". (That's another discussion) Quite frankly, they took too much at face value, gullible. Of course after a major war most in the West were sick of it and poorer. So as part of drumming up support for their Cold War stance, the Heer's reputation had some of the blood and shït washed off, the dents filled in and polished up nicely.

The generals published their memoirs, laying it on thick about how they were defeated by hordes of untermensch and Hitler. They partly filled a void of serious works on the Eastern Front. People like Obersturmbannführer Paul Schmidt aka Paul Carell could write great tales of how the valiant Nordic übermensch defended Western civilisation against the new Mongol hordes. Even I enjoyed his stuff, he could write well, but history ... :eek:. Most people's interest in history would be limited to a few 'popular' authors, rather than better but drier historical analysis, naturally, upmarket comics without the drawings (nothing wrong with that per se, people have lives to live).

To compound things, Soviet archives were closed and Soviet writers had to toe the party line. So not only was Soviet History dismissed as shallow propaganda (that judgement was partly correct) and not only were some Soviet disasters minimised or overlooked but many of the German disasters were very, very under-appreciated or forgotten. Examples include the ignoring of the size and failure of Mars and the exaggeration and almost inversion of Prokhorovka which would have shown the Soviets in a worse light. A excellent example to the opposite would be Bagration, aka Destruction of Army Group Centre, where the Germans were not just out numbered but were totally played by Soviet maskirovka, outmanoeuvred at operational level and out fought at tactical level. The scale of the German defeat and the skill of the Soviets only seems to have been appreciated from the late '70's, before then few realised how utterly curbstomped the Herr was.

In summary the ideological demonising and the "dumb Soviet brute" bigotry allied with the lack of solid documented evidence that would have shot down many of the German's exaggerations and whitewashes meant that the Germans got a half price if not a free pass on their many failures.

Sex (a bonus reel).

The marching in step, the drum rolls, the music, the torch lit processions, the phallic standards raised aloft, the whiff of Zyklon B in the air and all those pretty Hitlerjugend boys and tough sweaty Bund Deutscher Mädel all help to raise ... eh ... blood pressure. A bit like a Roman Bacchanalia, a Disco or a German Love Parade (Ooops!). That type of theatre has been the basis of ecstatic religions since the dawn of humanity and add in epileptic fits and you can explain most prophets. (The incense, the rising and kneeling, the chanting, the eating of a man's flesh while on your knees before yet another man and the altar boys are still a feature of a religion or two today).

The wish to lose control in orgasmic oblivion is part of humanity's animal nature. You see that in religion, alcohol, drugs and totalitarian societies. Apart from the sexual element there is the deep desire to abandon responsibility and have Mother/Daddy, Adolph, Mao, Donald or who ever, to take charge and don't bother your little head about anything. Simple (and usually wrong) solutions for simple people. Maybe a desire for Nirvana (oblivion) or a return to the womb. This desire to subsume yourself into the mass is rooted in our pack/herd nature as such behaviour allowed us puny tailless monkeys to utterly dominate this planet and ties in with our sex drive.

The Germans had that in spades. Honza highlighted the artistic aspect and that combined with the gross infantile and sexual messaging of the spectacles gives you the perfect seduction.

Note: My original curt response was intended to provoke thought. While my bonus reel may come across as crude and offensive, it is also intended to make people think. Whether you believe, for example, that religious rituals are divinely sourced or not, my point is to give an idea of how and why they work so well and have lasted so long with humans.
for those out there who don't understand what Paul was saying,...let me sum it up for you...


MORE COW BELL!!!

 
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