Amerikanskaya Suka questions

[jrv]

The German initial OB units "set up concealed on/north of hexrow 71P/FrFAR." The German OB contains four "?" counters. Are these allowed to set up concealed, i.e. with a non-OB-given "?" on top? Ordinarily they would not, but a SSR could override that. Is the setup instructions such an overriding SSR?

SSR 2 "AFVs may not set up in nor enter buildings." "Entering a building" is not a well-defined ASL term as far as I know. (The phrases "enter a building obstacle" and "non-VBM entry of a building hex" are used in cellars [B23.41].) Does this mean that AFVs may not enter a building hex (holy Starter Kit, Batman!), or does it mean that AFVs may enter building hexes in bypass only?

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The German initial OB units "set up concealed on/north of hexrow 71P/FrFAR." The German OB contains four "?" counters. Are these allowed to set up concealed, i.e. with a non-OB-given "?" on top? Ordinarily they would not, but a SSR could override that. Is the setup instructions such an overriding SSR?

No it is not such an SSR.

Same thing with e.g., RB13 - which has 12 x "?" in the Russian OB:
"Elements of 241st Rifle Regiment, 95th Rifle Division [ELR: 3] set up on/east-of Hex Grains U38-X36-X32-CC30-CC23, concealed regardless of terrain type (see SSR 2): {SAN: 5}"

SSR 2 "AFVs may not set up in nor enter buildings." "Entering a building" is not a well-defined ASL term as far as I know. (The phrases "enter a building obstacle" and "non-VBM entry of a building hex" are used in cellars [B23.41].) Does this mean that AFVs may not enter a building hex (holy Starter Kit, Batman!), or does it mean that AFVs may enter building hexes in bypass only?

It means they may not enter the building - had it meant to prohibit VBM it would have said "building hexes".

E.g., scenario J149:
Elements of 71st Division, company c, 192nd Tank Battalion, and coastal Defense units [ELR: 2] set up within 6 hexes of 49R1 and/or 49Y9 in Locations not occupied by Troop F Personnel; AFVs may not set up in building hexes:

FB18:
"Set up in Level 0 hexes numbered ≤ 12 [EXC: AFVs may not set up in buildings] (see also SSR 3):"

(Both from ASL Journal 10).

 

[Mister T]

IMO the wording of the SSR would allow setting up dummies in non-concealment terrain (ie clarification is needed).

The wording "entering a building" is clear and does not need clarification (ie VBM is allowed).

 

[klasmalmstrom]

IMO the wording of the SSR would allow setting up dummies in non-concealment terrain (ie clarification is needed).

It is a setup instruction - not an SSR. Hence it does not override the normal concealment rules.

When OB-given "?" are allowed to be placed in non-Concealment Terrain it is usually spelled out, at least on official scenarios.

 

[jrv]

The Germans can set up concealed (per first post). May these setup instruction concealment counters be placed in non-concealment terrain? It's not a SSR, it's a setup instruction.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The Germans can set up concealed (per first post). May these setup instruction concealment counters be placed in non-concealment terrain?

No - this setup instruction (which is present in a bunch of scenarios [both official and non-official]) does not override A12.12.

IMO, you need something like this SSR from AP119 to allow it:
"...All German units may set up concealed regardless of terrain type, and Dummy counters may be set up in non-Concealment Terrain...."

 

[STAVKA]

IMO, you need something like this SSR from AP119 to allow it:
"...All German units may set up concealed regardless of terrain type, and Dummy counters may be set up in non-Concealment Terrain...."

Or a better SSR would be:

...All German units may set up concealed, and all terrain is considered Concealment Terrain during the German set up.

 

[Mister T]

It is a setup instruction - not an SSR. Hence it does not override the normal concealment rules.

There is no such hierarchy in the ASL legal order between "setup instructions" and "SSRs". It is something you completely made up.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

There is no such hierarchy in the ASL legal order between "setup instructions" and "SSRs". It is something you completely made up.

Are there any set up instructions in any SSR in this scenario?

 

[jrv]

Are there any set up instructions in any SSR in this scenario?

SSR2 "AFVs may not set up in nor enter buildings." The others are not set up instructions.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

SSR2 "AFVs may not set up in nor enter buildings." The others are not set up instructions.

Ok, then, so there is no SSR granting any concealment, only a "setup instruction" (as part of the OB designation).

Then it is my contention that such a non-SSR "setup instruction" does not mean the normal rules regarding where one can place OB-given "?" are ignored.

 

[jrv]

Ok, then, so there is no SSR granting any concealment, only a "setup instruction" (as part of the OB designation).

Then it is my contention that such a non-SSR "setup instruction" does not mean the normal rules regarding where one can place OB-given "?" are ignored.

I tend to agree that the difference between set up instructions and SSRs is a bit of a stretch. For instance in Cibik's RIdge[74] the setup instructions for the marines say, "set up on/west-of hexrow P, using HIP." If the set up instructions don't override the rules, the bit about HIP needs to be repeated in the SSRs to have any effect, and they are not.

JR

 

[klasmalmstrom]

For instance in Cibik's RIdge[74] the setup instructions for the marines say, "set up on/west-of hexrow P, using HIP." If the set up instructions don't override the rules, the bit about HIP needs to be repeated in the SSRs to have any effect, and they are not.

So do you think that the Marines can setup using HIP in Open Ground in this scenario?, or can they set up using HIP but according to the rules for setting up using HIP (i.e., only in Concealment Terrain)?

IMO, setup instructions thay say "set up concealed" or "set up using HIP" are not overriding the rules (as they don't say one can never set up thusly) - they say that you can set up concealed/HIP according the rules for such.

 

[ASA]

Hi all, another question on the same scenario: can the Turn 1 German reinforcements enter on the north edge of both 71 and FrFA? Or only on the north edge of board FrFA (+ east edge)?

Reinforced elements [...] enter on Turn 1 along the north and/or east edge(s) of Board FrFA.

I was dead sure that it was the second option, i.e. no entry allowed on board 71, but then came across some AAR saying the opposite. Hence I'd like to double-check here.

Thanks,
ASA

 

[klasmalmstrom]

With that wording it looks to me it is the north/east edge(s) for board FrFA only.

 

[JR Brackin]

So do you think that the Marines can setup using HIP in Open Ground in this scenario?, or can they set up using HIP but according to the rules for setting up using HIP (i.e., only in Concealment Terrain)?

IMO, setup instructions thay say "set up concealed" or "set up using HIP" are not overriding the rules (as they don't say one can never set up thusly) - they say that you can set up concealed/HIP according the rules for such.

IMO I believe that it is not clear the intent. It can be argued both ways.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

IMO I believe that it is not clear the intent. It can be argued both ways.

So when an SSR grants HIP, you mean it can be argued they can set up using HIP in Open Ground?

 

[STAVKA]

Hi all, another question on the same scenario: can the Turn 1 German reinforcements enter on the north edge of both 71 and FrFA? Or only on the north edge of board FrFA (+ east edge)?

Reinforced elements [...] enter on Turn 1 along the north and/or east edge(s) of Board FrFA.

I was dead sure that it was the second option, i.e. no entry allowed on board 71, but then came across some AAR saying the opposite. Hence I'd like to double-check here.

Thanks,
ASA

Can only enter along 2 of the 3 board edges of board FrFA. The AAR, they have played it wrong, but I am sure they are ok.

 

[JR Brackin]

So when an SSR grants HIP, you mean it can be argued they can set up using HIP in Open Ground?

Sorry for the delay - a rare working Saturday for me.

IMO - Regarding the illustration from JR, it could be. From the scenario at hand there was discussion at Paul S group based on the writing of the scenario. Anytime that an SSR could have a reasonable debate with multiple interpretations than more clarity is required.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Anytime that an SSR could have a reasonable debate with multiple interpretations than more clarity is required.

So are you saying that an SSR like this (which is very common, more-or-less the "standard" on official scenarios):
"3. The Hungarians may use HIP for ≤ one squad-equivalent (and any SMC/SW stacked with it)."

... is not clear enough in that if does not override this part of A12.3:
"A SSR may allow HIP for one or more units. HIP is a form of concealment wherein a player may secretly record the location of his units in Concealment Terrain".