Ambush and concealment.

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This is a answer that will re - write my ASL playing experience.

It appears that in ANY terrain ( read open ground) where a unit advances into CC with a concealed unit
an ambush roll is made.

I previously though this was only done in "? terrain".

Thanks
 

Jazz

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Concealment is not retained advancing into Open Ground (as defined for concealment loss in A10.531) with no DRM and consequently no ambush is rolled. It’s a bit more complicated than just concealment terrain.

Note that if there is anything in the hex that would negate FFMO (wreck, orchard, etc.....) then concealment is retained.....and ambush can happen.
 
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hongkongwargamer

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11.4 AMBUSH: Whenever Infantry advance into CC (unless reinforcing a Melee) in a woods/building Location or with/against a concealed unit(s) an Ambush can conceivably occur.
 

Binchois

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Concealment is not retained advancing into Open Ground (as defined for concealment loss) with no DRM and consequently no ambush is rolled. It’s a bit more complicated than just concealment terrain.
Yes. And it's not "concealment terrain" that ordinarily grants an ambush possibility, its woods or buildings only (so not orchards, grain, etc...).

A11.4 AMBUSH: Whenever Infantry advance into CC (unless reinforcing a Melee) in a woods/building Location or with/against a concealed unit(s) an Ambush can conceivably occur.​
....YIKES! I got HONGKONGWARGAMERED!
 

Jazz

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11.4 AMBUSH: Whenever Infantry advance into CC (unless reinforcing a Melee) in a woods/building Location or with/against a concealed unit(s) an Ambush can conceivably occur.
I believe the original question was caused by confusion as to just when concealment is maintained/lost during an advance. Advance into OG as defined by A10.531 would lose concealment and consequently, if both sides are then unconcealed, no ambush would occur.

Of course, it is possible that the non-advancing unit could be concealed in the OG location in which case ambush would be rolled even though the advancing unit loses concealment.
 

jrv

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Concealment is not retained advancing into Open Ground (as defined for concealment loss) with no DRM and consequently no ambush is rolled. It’s a bit more complicated than just concealment terrain.

Note that if there is anything in the hex that would negate FFMO (wreck, orchard, etc.....) then concealment is retained.....and ambush can happen.
If the ATTACKER advances in vs a concealed DEFENDER in Open Ground, then Ambush can occur.

If the DEFENDER is unable to strip an ATTACKER's concealment as it advances into Open Ground, for example the DEFENDER is broken or, more fun, Berserk, and there are no other DEFENDER units that can strip the concealment then concealment is retained and Ambush can occur.

I'm sure there are other ways that Ambush can occur in Open Ground due to concealment.

JR
 

jrv

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Note also that there are terrain types that are not concealment terrain, yet a unit advancing into them does not lose concealment. Graveyards, crags and shellholes are three examples. Not everything that has a TEM is concealment terrain.

JR
 

Jazz

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If the ATTACKER advances in vs a concealed DEFENDER in Open Ground, then Ambush can occur.

If the DEFENDER is unable to strip an ATTACKER's concealment as it advances into Open Ground, for example the DEFENDER is broken or, more fun, Berserk, and there are no other DEFENDER units that can strip the concealment then concealment is retained and Ambush can occur.

I'm sure there are other ways that Ambush can occur in Open Ground due to concealment.

JR
Defending 'zerker not stripping concealment on advancing unit.....kinky.....
 

jrv

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Defending 'zerker not stripping concealment on advancing unit.....kinky.....
And the 'zerker is now really in a bad place, ambush-wise. The advancing unit is -2 concealed; the 'zerker is +2 lax & berserk. Heaven help if there is also a minus leader in the concealed stack. If you can catch a berserker in your APh sometimes the best way to deal with the threat is to advance in against it and let ambush take its natural course.

JR
 
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Philippe D.

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If you can catch a berserker in your APh sometimes the best way to deal with the threat is to advance in against it and let ambush take its natural course.
True, though if the whole stack is concealed it's not a target for the berserker, who might just leave in search of a different target. Of course, if it can it will probably enter the concealed stack's hex.
 

jrv

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True, though if the whole stack is concealed it's not a target for the berserker, who might just leave in search of a different target. Of course, if it can it will probably enter the concealed stack's hex.
If you don't kill the berserker in CC but want the berserker to remain, voluntarily remove the concealment off one of the units at the end of the CCPh. Melee will form.

JR
 

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I think you lose concealment anyway, despite the unit not being in Good Order.
A unit loses its concealment in the CCPh only if it makes/directs a CC attack [EXC: a successful Ambush; 11.4] or suffers Casualty Reduction.
The side with an Ambush advantage may also maintain any concealment it has in CC until it attacks without eliminating/capturing its target.
This does not seem to require someone able to view the attacker.
 

Binchois

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I think you lose concealment anyway, despite the unit not being in Good Order.
A unit loses its concealment in the CCPh only if it makes/directs a CC attack [EXC: a successful Ambush; 11.4] or suffers Casualty Reduction.
The side with an Ambush advantage may also maintain any concealment it has in CC until it attacks without eliminating/capturing its target.
This does not seem to require someone able to view the attacker.
If the Berserker is the only enemy with LOS to the CC, then there would no concealment loss.

Like most everything else, a CC attack is only a concealment-loss action if a Good Order enemy sees it happen. This includes the enemy engaged in the same CC - excepting one killed by the concealed unit's successful Ambush.

"[If the unit] Attacks in CC [EXC: an Ambush that eliminates/captures its target; A11.4]" is found in the Concealment Table, Case A. Case A doesn't apply when there are no Good Order KEU in LOS.

The exceptions to this general rule are under Case F: when the concealed unit is broken/reduced/wounded, searched or mopped up by the enemy.

Most of the above is also true if the only enemies with LOS are above 16 hexes away. Now the governing exceptions are under Case E. You can even fire your HMG at a target 20 hexes away. If that target is the only enemy with LOS, you do not lose concealment in the process!
 

Vinnie

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Agreed. I looked under the CC rules but neglected to check if CC was specifically covered on th eTable. Since it is, I agree that although the concealment loss is called out by the A11 rules, it is superceeded by the table.
 
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If the ATTACKER advances in vs a concealed DEFENDER in Open Ground, then Ambush can occur.

This is the line I was after. The question was primarily about the "ambush" .

Thanks HK warganer for sending the rule. I already read that. Do you think if you read the rule it is 100% understood. If so this Forum would not need to exist.

So thanks once again. !
 

hongkongwargamer

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If the ATTACKER advances in vs a concealed DEFENDER in Open Ground, then Ambush can occur.

This is the line I was after. The question was primarily about the "ambush" .

Thanks HK warganer for sending the rule. I already read that. Do you think if you read the rule it is 100% understood. If so this Forum would not need to exist.

So thanks once again. !
You are welcome!! I understood the rule 100% myself so I expect no less from you.

I don't expect this forum to exist solely for the purpose of addressing my cognitive disabilities. This forum exist so I can hook up with all these wonderful people that I have great relationships with.

This community ain't tools, these folks are the best part of ASL. Just so you know.

PS Any other queries - please don't hesitate to ask - that's how I learned!
PPS ""The light by which we see in this world comes out of the soul of the observer" - Emerson"
 
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