Aircraft Questions.

Tim Niesen

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
146
Country
llUnited States
Two questions which I was asked to post by Don Deibler. He is still reading the air rules. They have always been beyond my ken. 1. Is a fighter bomber able to straf for two consecutive hexes? 2. Is there any limit to the number of hex that an airplane can straf along an X grain? Tim
 

Justiciar

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Within Range
Country
llUnited States
1. No and yes. Point Attack E7.402. It attacks from 4 hexes away against hex G5...it now moves one hex forward but here it attacks hex G5 again. Attack run is over (barring dropping bombs on G5, your OP asked only about strafing...ie MGs). It has strafed for two consecutive hexes...albeit its target is the same hex (and has to be by rule).

2. Yes. 4. Strafing E7.401. Here it starts its attack again from 4 hexes away...attacks G5, then moves forward 1 hex, attacks G6, moves forward 1 hex attacks G7, moves forward one hex and attacks G8. The staffing is now over.

Now of the platform is a Stuka he conducts a Strafing the same as a FB...its point attack is slightly different see E7.403.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Aircraft can attack as a strafing run of up to four consecutive hexes. The aircraft can choose not to fire in some of those hexes, so it could fire at the first and second hex and decline to shoot at the third and fourth (perhaps this is the DFPh and those hexes are empty, or they are blind hexes). It could also attack the first and the fourth only, etc.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
146
Country
llUnited States
Don thanks you for your responses. He had been interpreting the rules cprrectly. He texted me, "The rules....could have been read to say...that you could only attack every four hexes." Tim
 

Tim Niesen

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
146
Country
llUnited States
Your answers clarify my understanding. Last night on the phone, Don was trying to convince me that an aircraft had an unlimited number of attack hexes along a X hex grain, which I thought was limited to four hexes. We old men are capable of learning. Tim
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,593
Reaction score
5,556
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
E7.401 STRAFING: An aircraft strafes by first being placed along a specified Hex Grain so that it is four hexes away from the initial target hex ... The aircraft repeats this procedure (henceforth referred to as a Strafing Run) in every hex traversed until it occupies the target hex of its initial target.
The Strafing Run is 4 hexes long.
Q.E.D.
 

Justiciar

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Within Range
Country
llUnited States
Don thanks you for your responses. He had been interpreting the rules cprrectly. He texted me, "The rules....could have been read to say...that you could only attack every four hexes." Tim
See Robin's post at 6. They do say what he wanted, just not the way he wanted it to be said. You will find that throughout the rules.

How you would have worded something is different from how I might and how the rules did in fact. You have to open your mind and tell Don likewise and get over your "own" style of writing/wording. It helps if you have this openness as you can then learn to "hear" and "see" what is "ASL-speak" which will help you both with other rules. ASL is like another language, although written in English (err American), it requires a willingness on the reader to be open to a cadence and formulation that is not your own.
 

Tim Niesen

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
146
Country
llUnited States
Do you folks think that the notorious ambiguities of the first edition ASL rules have been muted, and that the second edition of ASL has rhetorical coherence? I Don and I share a lawyer, who many years ago compared the first edition of the rules as suitable for the employment of a "Philadelphia Lawyer." Tim
 

Justiciar

Elder Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2008
Messages
5,410
Reaction score
2,011
Location
Within Range
Country
llUnited States
The language is the same...it has nothing to do with where you practice law. The law is full of exceptions...even by state...
Nor is the game designed to be won by those who are most crooked at it...whether in Philly or El Paso.
Just learn the rules and the exceptions to them.
That the game demands a heck of a lot out of the practitioner of "the law"...absolutely..that is one of its fundamental appeals (for me, and I would wager many)...so likewise would pleading a case before the US Supreme Court demand much of he lawyer in question.
That is what high level ASL play can be like. You are the advocate you state your case...make a move...the USSC asks you to verify your stance on an assault move into a rice paddy in daylight which is not in season, yet you claim to maintain concealment...how is this so?
Well your honor all enemy units in LOS of said assault moving units have some form of hinderance of at least +1...
"Proceed then with your next move..."

Your "Philadelphia Lawyer" does not want to put in the time to learn the law...therefore he has no right to practice at this bar... ;)
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
The ASL rules were, and continue to be, remarkably good considering the complexity of the game. There were, and still are, some areas that are written in a double-convoluted style, where the rule is clear but it is a hard slog to read. There are plenty of places where you wish there were more cross-references. There are some cases that are not as thoroughly thought through to cover extreme cases or complications. Prisoners might fit in here, as the number of permutations of possible events turn out to be remarkably large. And there were certainly a few rules that were under-developed. Human Wave was one major area that was fixed. Chapter E had a lot of stylistic problems (rules that were in footnotes) in v1 which were improved in v2, but there are still areas where their history as a half-baked release leaves them weak. I understand that is being worked on currently. Overall the ASLRB, even thinking about v1, has held up pretty well.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
146
Country
llUnited States
Okay, back to the rules. Don and I are texting about the penetration of ability of strafing aircraft to penetrate tanks. He thinks that Adjacent advantage is applied, but I am sceptical about that. I would think that rear facing advantage is observed, however, from plane to tank. Tim
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
When using MGs the point-blank range TK modifier is used per the C7.31 AP To Kill Table. A MG will be < 25mm, so at (ground) range 2-6 hexes there is a +1 TK# modifier. Aerial range is twice ground range, so when attacking at four hexes (as with a strafing attack), the equivalent ground range is eight hexes, i.e. there is no TK modifier for strafing. For a point attack the first attack is at four hexes aerial = eight hexes ground, so there is no TK modifier, but the second attack is at three hexes aerial = six hexes ground, so there is a +1 TK modifier. Stukas performing a point attack will get a +2 modifier on their second attack.

Aerial attacks also always qualify for C7.1 aerial and rear modifiers (the rear modifier is regardless of the actual direction of the attack), which will add either +2 or +3 to the TK#.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
146
Country
llUnited States
Not sure that I understand the last part of your answer. Are these plus 2/3 in addition to the reduction of the tank's armor for aerial attacks? Seems a bit of overkill. But okay, this fits Don' s conclusions, but with different origins. Tim
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Not sure that I understand the last part of your answer. Are these plus 2/3 in addition to the reduction of the tank's armor for aerial attacks? Seems a bit of overkill. But okay, this fits Don' s conclusions, but with different origins. Tim
The attack is against the aerial AF in addition. A 44F MG has a base TK# of 6, which against a Panther would be modified by +1 aerial, +1 rear & +1 range on the second attack of a point attack. That works out to a 9 TK# against 3 aerial armor. A TK DR of 6 is a stun result, and a DR of 5 or less kills the Panther.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
146
Country
llUnited States
Okay. In this case it is a 42 German fighter against a Soviet Stuart. One less to kill. I will let Don decipher the rule allusions since he has my rules. I did not anticipate the second point about the additional penetration due to the point attack. Tim
 

Tim Niesen

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
146
Country
llUnited States
He can't seem to log back in. I suspect that this is his subterfuge for his inability to suffer fools lightly. On the other hand, I am almost imperious to insult. Having been a severest stutterer in my populous Lancaster County. Also, my father yelled at me for most of my life. Hard shell. Like an early American pre-dreadnought. Tim
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
German '42 FB starts as a five TK, modified plus one rear, plus one aerial, against aerial AF of two for a Stuart will stun on a five, kill on a four or less at four hexes distant from the target. At three hexes (second hex of a point attack) it will stun on a six, kill on a five or less. To get the true chance of a kill, you also have to factor in the sighting task check and To Hit chances. These can also seriously degrade the chance for a kill.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
146
Country
llUnited States
I played the same role for Thomas Ricks Lindley on the Alamo Movie website. He could not control his temper. I had discovered the new Davis Crockett death account, which depicted the American hero as refusing to surrender and being impaled by a Mexican Lancer. Tim
 
Top