Air strayfing attack and CE tank with riders.

Tim Niesen

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
146
Country
llUnited States
This morning Steve attacked our hordes advancing toward the little village on the along the coast of the Black Sea. He had rolled quite well getting not only fighters on the first turn but also three of them. He attacked first a moving 628 with a FT. He killed the squad but the FT was not lost. Then came the debate. There was a Stuart tank in the next hex with a rider and a CE crew. I think that it should be a 4 to stun the tank, 3 to kill, and an 8+0 against the rider and an 8+2 against the CE crew. Was I correct? Now first he had to hit the tank as well. But would there be an effect upon the riders and crew without a hit. That as the main dispute. Tim
 

Robin Reeve

The Swiss Moron
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
19,593
Reaction score
5,557
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
Is the aircraft attacking on the IFT with its MG?
Or is it firing as ordnance?
In that case, what is the year of the FB and the aeriel AF of the tank?
What are the "4 to stun the tank, 3 to kill" coming from?
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
This morning Steve attacked our hordes advancing toward the little village on the along the coast of the Black Sea. He had rolled quite well getting not only fighters on the first turn but also three of them. He attacked first a moving 628 with a FT. He killed the squad but the FT was not lost. Then came the debate. There was a Stuart tank in the next hex with a rider and a CE crew. I think that it should be a 4 to stun the tank, 3 to kill, and an 8+0 against the rider and an 8+2 against the CE crew. Was I correct? Now first he had to hit the tank as well. But would there be an effect upon the riders and crew without a hit. That as the main dispute. Tim
The MGs make a TH DR. If they hit, there is a TK/effectss DR. A '42 FB has a base five TK#, modified by C7.1 +1 Rear & +1 Aerial for a modified TK# of 7 against the aerial AF of a 4/[3] Stuart, which is a 2. An effects DR of five Stuns the tank, four or three elims and two burns it. If the tank is killed both the crew and the Rider make their CS DRs. If the tank is Stunned the Riders (but not the CE crew, which was Stunned) are attacked Collaterally at eight FP. Since the effects DR has to be a five for a Stun on the tank, the result for the collateral has to be a 2MC. If the tank is hit but not affected, both crew and Rider take the Collateral attack using the effects DR (which had to have been in the range six-twelve to not kill the tank), with the crew getting the +2 CE DRM. If the tank is not hit, neither crew nor Rider are attacked Collaterally.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
146
Country
llUnited States
JR, Your calculations are correct, but for some reason the Axis fighters are the 39 versions. Must have been older planes used in secondary fronts. Or maybe they are actually older Rumanian planes, we would have to ask the designer. So if the kill is not made, I assume that there is still the effects upon the rider and the CE crew. Now if the plane had not been hit? Here I assume that one uses Black numbers to hit, or does this vary by nationality? Don and I argued to Steve that there would have been no consequence to the rider and crew of the tank had there not been hit by the strafing MG. Tim
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
JR, Your calculations are correct, but for some reason the Axis fighters are the 39 versions. Must have been older planes used in secondary fronts. Or maybe they are actually older Rumanian planes, we would have to ask the designer. So if the kill is not made, I assume that there is still the effects upon the rider and the CE crew. Now if the plane had not been hit? Here I assume that one uses Black numbers to hit, or does this vary by nationality? Don and I argued to Steve that there would have been no consequence to the rider and crew of the tank had there not been hit by the strafing MG. Tim
If the FB are '39, they have six FP MGs. Part of the reason I guessed they were '42 is that you said the collateral attack was at eight FP.

Aircraft use black TH#s [E7.41, E7.42]. There would be no collateral attack vs its PRC if the plane does not hit the vehicle.

JR
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
6,913
Reaction score
5,094
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
...There would be no collateral attack vs its PRC if the plane does not hit the vehicle.

JR
Not quite as if one reads a little further in E7.41 "Unlike all other MG To Kill attempts however, an aircraft's MG may attack other unarmored targets in the same hex as the AFV — using the Original To Hit DR vs the AFV as the IFT Effects DR (modified appropriately) vs any unarmored targets (in lieu of any Collateral Attack vs vulnerable PRC)." Therefore any vulnerable PRC would be attacked on the IFT regardless of a hit on the AFV. However, you are correct in the sense that there is no "collateral" attack vs the PRC.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Not quite as if one reads a little further in E7.41 "Unlike all other MG To Kill attempts however, an aircraft's MG may attack other unarmored targets in the same hex as the AFV — using the Original To Hit DR vs the AFV as the IFT Effects DR (modified appropriately) vs any unarmored targets (in lieu of any Collateral Attack vs vulnerable PRC)." Therefore any vulnerable PRC would be attacked on the IFT regardless of a hit on the AFV. However, you are correct in the sense that there is no "collateral" attack vs the PRC.
I take what I said back. There is a q&a on the matter.

q&a said:
E7.41 When aircraft MG attack a CE AFV, is the TH DR used to attack the Vulnerable PRC on the IFT?
A. Yes, and the PRC do not suffer a Collateral Attack. [Compil9]
The vehicle does not have to be hit for the PRC to be attacked.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
146
Country
llUnited States
JR, I must admit a flaw in my game. I seem to have lost my aircraft counters. The attacking aircraft in my example of play are fighters, and Don has searched the threads on aircraft, which indicates to him that 39 fighters are 8MG factors and 42 fighter bombers have 6MGs. If this is incorrect please tell us. The fighter bombers in this session (3rd) have not yet arrived for either side. Tim
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
JR, I must admit a flaw in my game. I seem to have lost my aircraft counters. The attacking aircraft in my example of play are fighters, and Don has searched the threads on aircraft, which indicates to him that 39 fighters are 8MG factors and 42 fighter bombers have 6MGs. If this is incorrect please tell us. The fighter bombers in this session (3rd) have not yet arrived for either side. Tim
The '39 is 6 FP, the '42 is 8 FP, and the '44 is 12 FP. The Stuka has 4 FP.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
1,209
Reaction score
146
Country
llUnited States
JR, So we have been overestimating the firepower of the 39 fighter plane. What is the strength of the 42 fighter bomber machine gun? I must have lost the box with the airplanes somewhere. Tim
 
Top