Ain't Numbers Grand?

CPangracs

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Recent reports tend to show that there are more poor in the US now than in the past. The funny thing is, there are almost 3% LESS poor in the US than just 3.5 years ago. Before that, it took 8 years to reduce that percentage only 2%. Do the math and you'll see this also coincides with the 8 years of Clinton and 3.5 of GWB. This is even WITH the immigration of poor into our country, the numbers of which are included in this decrease.

Furthermore, there have been attacks on GWB by the Kerry campaign that there are 40 some-odd million people have no health insurance. HOWEVER, what the average American doesn't know because it is buried in newspaper articles or omitted completely by the Kerry camp is that these numbers include a person who didn't have only ONE DAY of health insurance coverage! This includes people who CHANGE JOBS!! This then reduces the number to 24 million or so. THEN you have those Americans who CHOOSE NOT TO PURCHASE HEALTH INSURANCE.

Although hard numbers aren't available, many younger, single Americans decide that health insurance is discretionary spending, and decide to remain uninsured. You also have the RICH Americans who pay outright for healthcare, and those who take advantage of medical spending accounts.

Then you have those Americans who either don't KNOW they qualify for health coverage because they are working, or just decide not to apply for it.

Finally, this 40 million includes an estimate of ILLEGAL ALIENS who aren't even AUTHORIZED to purchase health care or apply for government insurance!

The estimate of people ELIGIBLE FOR LEGAL HEALTH INSURANCE who REALLY don't have coverage through no fault of their own is only about 3-5 million. Still too high, but not the 40 million Kerry wants you to believe!

Which number grabs you,...5 million or 40 million?!

Ain't numbers grand?!
 

JAMiAM

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CPangracs said:
Ain't numbers grand?!
Especially when you pull them out of thin air, make sh*t up, and load it with innuendo. Did you have a point, or was this something that we should take your disclaimer at face value on?

Just wanted to know whether or not a documented rebuttal would be wasted...
 

CPangracs

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JAMiAM said:
Especially when you pull them out of thin air, make sh*t up, and load it with innuendo. Did you have a point, or was this something that we should take your disclaimer at face value on?

Just wanted to know whether or not a documented rebuttal would be wasted...
You do what you think you need to. Your trolling comments won't goad me into telling you where you can shove your innuendo.

The numbers are real, but I'm sure you can find some twisted socialist source to say otherwise. Whether or not it's worth it for you to find it is up to you, otherwise just take it as the ranting of an informed conservative who is tired of the twisting of numbers to suit their agenda,...ON BOTH SIDES.
 

Legion

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I have actually come to believe that CPangracs ( :nuts: ) is an Al Quaeda sleeper agent, as anyone who reads the rubbish he writes and has not had the benefit of visiting the US and seeing for themselves that 99% of US citizens are actually rational, kind people could only respond with some sort of extreme reaction.

The Chinese speak of Yin/Yang and one of the transformations inherant in Yin/Yang is that times of extremity will naturally bring about their polar opposite. So let CPangracs rave away, let GWBush bomb for oil - eventually the world will collectively breath a sigh of relief as these fools disappear in a puff of irrelivance.

Go for it mate, rant away... pity you missed your true calling by 70 years - though then you would have been cooking the books to declare the purity of the Aryan race rather than the US of A.

I might add that i mean no disrespect to either the German people, or the citizens of the US in this mail.
 

CyberRanger

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Tim McBride said:
Statistics and damm lies; gotta love em.
ah ... during my many semesters of statistics, we had a favorite line - "Figures never lie; liars always figure!"

Numbers can be made to support any position. The 40 mil figure (published by the Census Bureau) has been thrown around for a decade now. It is beyond doubt a figure used by politicians in the US who wish to inspire outrage at the US system of health care insurance. It is 1) an inaccurate representation of the health insurance issue and 2) comes with the implied statement that the US Federal government should buy health insurance for these people or force employers to do so.

This article gives a slightly better view of the uninsured issue. Here's another on with more commentary from the CATO Institute.
 

CPangracs

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WestPointer said:
ah ... during my many semesters of statistics, we had a favorite line - "Figures never lie; liars always figure!"

Numbers can be made to support any position. The 40 mil figure (published by the Census Bureau) has been thrown around for a decade now. It is beyond doubt a figure used by politicians in the US who wish to inspire outrage at the US system of health care insurance. It is 1) an inaccurate representation of the health insurance issue and 2) comes with the implied statement that the US Federal government should buy health insurance for these people or force employers to do so.

This article gives a slightly better view of the uninsured issue. Here's another on with more commentary from the CATO Institute.
Careful, WP. You should know that rational statements that go against the socialist rhetoric here is dangerous! I'm used to the lunacy of the world's social democrats who believe in something for nothing. I fear for you, bro!
 

CPangracs

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Legion said:
I have actually come to believe that CPangracs ( :nuts: ) is an Al Quaeda sleeper agent, as anyone who reads the rubbish he writes and has not had the benefit of visiting the US and seeing for themselves that 99% of US citizens are actually rational, kind people could only respond with some sort of extreme reaction.

The Chinese speak of Yin/Yang and one of the transformations inherant in Yin/Yang is that times of extremity will naturally bring about their polar opposite. So let CPangracs rave away, let GWBush bomb for oil - eventually the world will collectively breath a sigh of relief as these fools disappear in a puff of irrelivance.

Go for it mate, rant away... pity you missed your true calling by 70 years - though then you would have been cooking the books to declare the purity of the Aryan race rather than the US of A.

I might add that i mean no disrespect to either the German people, or the citizens of the US in this mail.
Just trying to come to the conclusion that I'm anything but a patriot and lover of my country shows a flaw in your way of thinking (if you want to call what you posted in any way, shape, or form the result of thinking).

You accuse me of being an Al Queda sleeper agent AND part of the Aryan race all in the same post?

You are what we call a dipsh*t. You should really take a few years, maybe compete in a couple of Special Olympics, before you attempt to attack me personally again.
 

Lt. Dan

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In my opinion, one American without coverage in health care is one too many. I believe it should be the right of every American to have basic healthcare coverage. Therefore I would gladly pay slightly higher in taxes so that every American is insured.

I work on the frontlines of medicine, and I've seen what happens when people without health insurance do when they get sick. They wait and wait and their problem gets worse and worse until it's too late. I had to treat an elderly woman one time in some slum high rise residential building who had a massive infection on both of her ankles. Her feet and ankles were so swollen they looked like bulging hooves with a large amount of puss discharging out of them. Why did she let this happen to herself? Why didn't she go to the doctor earlier? Because she had no health insurance and she didn't want to pay. That elderly woman probably had to get her feet amputated because the infection had become so bad, and all because she couldn't afford health insurance or the medical bills. Go figure.
 

Pheno

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People should remember that 98.7% of statistics are made up on the spot.
 

Deltapooh

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The US government defines poverty as any person or family who lacks the resources to meet the basic needs for healthy living; having insufficient income to provide the food, shelter and clothing needed to preserve health. The relative definition of powerty is having significantly less income and wealth than other members of your society.

The definitions alone can generate differences, in some cases, relative poverty is about two times greater than the figure reached under the US government definition. Furthermore, the process of evaluating the poverty line and who falls under it is flawed. For example: By not taking into account government assistance programs, more people are below the line of poverty. However, if you take food stamps, Section 8, etc, into account, fewer people are living in poverty. At the same rate, if you subtract income taxes, childcare, and healthcare from gross-income, the poverty rate increases dramatically.

As for Curt's post, I'm not sure where he obtained his figures, but the US Census released their 2003 poverty findings last week. They reported a 0.4% increase in poverty from 2002. This is the third year poverty has increased in the US. The report also found the number of people with health insurance rose by 1,000,000 in 2002-2003. However, so did the number the without coverage. That can happen if the rate of population growth increases. (I personally question this figure.)

Kerry was quick to seize the report findings, while Bush was quick to dismiss it. Both don't give a *hit.
 

CyberRanger

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Lt. Dan said:
well, then I'd be willing to pay whatever it takes.
No, you wouldn't. Would you give your entire paycheck to the government? Of course, not. You need to pay your own bills too. If you have kids, you need to feed and cloth them.

So, no you wouldn't. You may be willing to pay more but to say you'd pay "whatever it takes" is a nonsensical argument.

How about a true discussion of the opportunity costs involved in providing healthcare insurance, via the government, for each person in the US. Do we cut back on education? Do we reduce defense? If we raise taxes, how much will that really be? Let's say we use the 40 million number. Where I work, individual coverage runs around $400 per month per person. That's roughly $200 billion per year. (To put that in perspective, the current defense budget is around $424 billion.)

What else could we do with $200 billion? Where does the money come from? That's the kind of discussion I'd be interested in debating!
 

CPangracs

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WestPointer said:
No, you wouldn't. Would you give your entire paycheck to the government? Of course, not. You need to pay your own bills too. If you have kids, you need to feed and cloth them.

So, no you wouldn't. You may be willing to pay more but to say you'd pay "whatever it takes" is a nonsensical argument.

How about a true discussion of the opportunity costs involved in providing healthcare insurance, via the government, for each person in the US. Do we cut back on education? Do we reduce defense? If we raise taxes, how much will that really be? Let's say we use the 40 million number. Where I work, individual coverage runs around $400 per month per person. That's roughly $200 billion per year. (To put that in perspective, the current defense budget is around $424 billion.)

What else could we do with $200 billion? Where does the money come from? That's the kind of discussion I'd be interested in debating!
Not to pick on you exclusively, WestPointer, but this is exactly what I was talking about! Your numbers are arbitrary, particular to YOUR situation, and don't even come close to fact. I know families who pay $400 per year TOTAL for full, comprehensive healthcare! Mine is one of them. I fall under the Tricare System for military retirees, and I have a Tricare supplement through my company of about $6 that covers anything not covered by Tricare. My family is completely and totally covered. There are literally millions who fall under this category.

Then you have others who pay $400 per month for their whole family, and it goes on and on. To grab a number and say it would cost that much to insure someone across the board is an example of how numbers, and more importantly those who decide which numbers are correct, can skew even the most mundane of ratios and percentages. Often this is done to secure funds from the US taxpayer with a serious "cushion". Another example of the fleecing of America, and ALL politicians are guilty of it.

Of course, what you propose is along the lines of socialized medicine, and that can be a whole other topic for its benefits AND its failings. Personally, I have worked and been a patient in both US and German hospitals, and guess where I would rather be seen and treated on any given day? And this is from a purely personal, not nationalistic perspective. The US medical community has an oversight and a set of standards found in few other countries. That being said, I do NOT think that there is much value for each dollar spent in US health care, which is due mainl to medical products and pharmaceuticals suppliers, but that is also a by-product of a free-market economy. Again, that is ANOTHER topic altogether!

Suffice it to say, there is no easy answer. The thing about health insurance is that people who CAN'T afford their own often qualify for government-supported health care, but don't apply because they just don't know about it. Same with welfare, WIC, food stamps, etc. Many people work and don't think they qualify. This I blame on the state social service offices, as it is their responsibility to ensure every person who is qualified knows about it and assists them to get benefits. If you've ever been in a town's social services office, you know what a waste some of those employees are. Most are underpaid, and I've even seen some using food stamps themselves!

Suffice it to say, there are no easy answers, and any reform in this area will most likely be painful for many. Unfortunately, as with any other change at the government level, it will be too slow to satisfy the masses, who seem not to appreciate the phrase "Patience is a virtue".;)
 

CyberRanger

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CPangracs said:
Not to pick on you exclusively, WestPointer, but this is exactly what I was talking about! Your numbers are arbitrary, particular to YOUR situation, and don't even come close to fact. I know families who pay $400 per year TOTAL for full, comprehensive healthcare! Mine is one of them. I fall under the Tricare System for military retirees, and I have a Tricare supplement through my company of about $6 that covers anything not covered by Tricare. My family is completely and totally covered. There are literally millions who fall under this category.
My number was one example of the cost of healthcare to help illustrate the larger issue. I don't personnaly PAY $400 a month because my employer pays a large portion. You may not personally pay that much either but the $400 a year figure you quote is NOT the true cost of the insurance; that's the cost to you. The true cost is much higher and is paid for by the federal government.
CPangracs said:
Of course, what you propose is along the lines of socialized medicine, and that can be a whole other topic for its benefits AND its failings.
I am NOT proposing socialized medicine. I'm opposed to it any such idea! (Although with Medicaid, Medicare, etc we virtually have it.) I think my post must have been poorly written. My intent was to get the brain juices flowing. I'm asking posters who say we must have health insurance for everyone to quantify the cost and explain how that cost will be covered.

CPangracs - I'm on your side on this one! :D
 
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