AFVs

DaveStory

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I've read several posts stating that ASL is not a good model for AFVs/AFV combat. "It's a squad game, not a tank game".... yadda, yadda

I can understand that some people will always look for what isn't there - some little detail that wasn't integrated into the system or that the reality vs playability balance was tipped too far toward playability. Oh the humanity!!

In a comparative sense, I'm having a hard time recalling another system that admirably implements an equal level of detail and decision-making for WWII AFV combat.

So is all this dissension really just noise from the reality zealots or complainers who will never be happy? Or is there some old system out there (that I'm not remembering), which did a better job than ASL? Or are there legitimate gripes which could have been easily addressed without major consequences to the fun and playability of the game?
 

Jazz

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I've read several posts stating that ASL is not a good model for AFVs/AFV combat. "It's a squad game, not a tank game".... yadda, yadda

I can understand that some people will always look for what isn't there - some little detail that wasn't integrated into the system or that the reality vs playability balance was tipped too far toward playability. Oh the humanity!!

In a comparative sense, I'm having a hard time recalling another system that admirably implements an equal level of detail and decision-making for WWII AFV combat.

So is all this dissension really just noise from the reality zealots or complainers who will never be happy? Or is there some old system out there (that I'm not remembering), which did a better job than ASL? Or are there legitimate gripes which could have been easily addressed without major consequences to the fun and playability of the game?
Opinions vary. I don't think it's that bad of an AFV system, per se. I just think it's a better infantry system than it is an armored system.

The fact that tank thread noises are more fun to make than mud-trying-to-suck-a-boot-off-a-foot noises more than makes up for the difference.
 
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Patton's Best has you managing the loading of ammo into ready racks and assigning observing vs. actions, and individual crew member quality (all absolutely inappropriate for ASL) . The armour/gun model is based on ASL though.

This is an interesting thread because although I am a technical nerd I have often :rolleyes: when people want what I consider pointless rules. for example the 'weak spot' (vent?) on the side of the B1bis - for the amount of time it will come into play isn't the fact that I can get a CH enough?

If the chrome is too shiny I wont be able to see the game anymore.
 

alanp

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Jazz has it right in the sense that 'it's a better Infantry game than AFV game'. The Infantry rules set the bar pretty high.

I've got a game called MBT by Avalon Hill which appears to be "more realistic" in the AFV department in many ways. It doesn't do much with Infantry, though, and it doesn't cover the wide range of vehicles that ASL does. In fact it's for 'modern' war with helicopters and the M-1 Abrams.

You know, it just dawned on me that it's kind of like the WARS Ladder. It was programmed for a variety of games supported here at GameSquad so it's easy to find little tweaks here or there that would fix one aspect of the system. The little tweaks would change something else, though, so the 'fix' would cause another problem. This is a parable for many things in ASL, gaming in general and even Life. . .

Hmm, think I'll stick with ASL for my cardboard war-gaming needs. ;)

Edit: Oops, forgot to mention Yaquinto Publications' Panzer. Again, percentile dice, like MBT, which give a broader range of potential results. And cool overlays which are actually thicker than the paper board so hills really are hills. Covers WWII Eastern front tank combat, so it's almost comparable to ASL but again doesn't have nearly the range of vehicles and does Infantry a dis-service. And neither of these games portray Guns with Crews in any sort of realistic way compared to ASL.
 
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CraigBenn

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The problem with ASL vehicle combat is the realtime sattelite intelligence...how many real crews would have danced their armoured cars/ crap AFV's round the back of Tigers/Panthers?

Its perfectly safe because I know there are no HIP units in this scenario and the Tiger has intensived fire. Voila! - move round and take a bounding fire shot up its rear.

Yes it did happen but not that often.

Now Tanks and infantry vs infantry seems to work quite well.
 

Jazz

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The problem with ASL vehicle combat is the realtime sattelite intelligence...how many real crews would have danced their armoured cars/ crap AFV's round the back of Tigers/Panthers?

Its perfectly safe because I know there are no HIP units in this scenario and the Tiger has intensived fire. Voila! - move round and take a bounding fire shot up its rear.

Yes it did happen but not that often.

Now Tanks and infantry vs infantry seems to work quite well.
Arguably, that is the ONE BIG realism hit in ASL period, with respect to AFV or infantry.

- Perfect knowledge of terrain that you have never seen and probably do not have an appropriate scale map of.

- knowledge (in a general sense and to varying degrees) of where the other sides units are.

- Perfect knowledge, control, and ability to choreograph in excruciating detail by the commander (i.e. the player) of all units in his OOB.

- The time to ponder and choreograph T-H-E perfect move in light of all this knowledge that one has.

The price one pays for a playable abstraction methinks...?
 
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alanp

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The problem with ASL vehicle combat is the realtime sattelite intelligence...how many real crews would have danced their armoured cars/ crap AFV's round the back of Tigers/Panthers?

Its perfectly safe because I know there are no HIP units in this scenario and the Tiger has intensived fire. Voila! - move round and take a bounding fire shot up its rear.
well, I see this as realistic. A Tiger out in the open without any support could get waxed. It's IF'd so it probably took 1 or 2 AFVs with it; probably some others in previous turns. If it didn't have any other support--to allow the 'tin can' access to it's rear--it very well may not survive.

Perfect intell is also a problem in MBT and Panzer. Computer games handle this better but they have other problems, like stupid AI.
 

Chameleon

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Panzer/Armor/88 (forerunners of MBT/IDF) does a very good job with WWII armor combat but, like MBT, not so interesting on the infantry side. It could be argued that ASL might not be the greatest game for armor "realism" as far as game mechanics go, but the end results are fairly "realistic".
 

alanp

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Oh, one other thing re. perfect intel: try SASL with armor--you may find it a bit more realistic with CnC rules and Suspect counters galore, if that's what you're looking for.
 

Bret Hildebran

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well, I see this as realistic. A Tiger out in the open without any support could get waxed. It's IF'd so it probably took 1 or 2 AFVs with it; probably some others in previous turns. If it didn't have any other support--to allow the 'tin can' access to it's rear--it very well may not survive.
I think the point is more - if you were in the tincan w/o knowledge of the Tiger's real supporting force, would you make that end run? Say a prayer that there isn't another Tiger lurking over the ridge or an AT gun covering the Tiger's rear?

In ASL we know the other side's OB. In real life, no such luxuries & it's not "just cardboard" if you're the tincan tank commander that guesses wrong.

I think most Allied tank commanders, would likely hunker down and call for the Flyboys. Although maybe that's just the subset that survived the war & had the chance to write up their memoirs...

Bret Hildebran
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alanp

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Excellent point of course, Bret, but--what kind of game allows a tin-can commander to call in air support? run away to fight another day? (Recall, anyone?) In ASL, one is free to flee; most VCs penalize this, however, so it's mostly used in CGs!

ASL re-creates how 5 Shermans, say, can take out a hunkered down Panther well enough for me. The "Concern--German vs. Russian AFV" thread has some excellent points in it which pertain to this discussion as well.

I'm not into miniatures but how do those rule sets compare? Are miniature rules more realistic or is the appeal more the models/pageantry/history of the genre, etc?

We all find our 'gaming niche'--the spot that feels most comfortable for our needs.
 

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As a miniature gamer, I have yet to find a rule set that can model everything equally well. Panzer is often used for miniatures, as is ASL. I don't know of any that can realistically remove the god's eye view of the world. Some rules try with hidden counters but the only thing I have ever seen that comes close to working is double-blind, but it is a major pain.
 

Bret Hildebran

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Excellent point of course, Bret, but--what kind of game allows a tin-can commander to call in air support?
Good point - I probably should have said "beg for air support"...
ASL re-creates how 5 Shermans, say, can take out a hunkered down Panther well enough for me.
Agreed. I was just trying to point out some battlefield concerns a real tank commander would have when performing the dance o' death that we cardboard commanders don't have to worry about.

Overall I think the ASL model for tank combat is a playable abstraction. It's not nearly as detailed as the infantry model, but it's a usable model that works well enough. One of the biggest areas of abstraction for me is the armor factors employed. In reality there should be a lot more steps in AF than we have in ASL - 8, 11, 14, 18 & 26 but nothing in between? It works OK & the system makes it easy to convey the info concisely, but it's a monstrous abstraction and hardly the only one in the ASL armor battle...

Bret Hildebran
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CraigBenn

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I think the point is more - if you were in the tincan w/o knowledge of the Tiger's real supporting force, would you make that end run? Say a prayer that there isn't another Tiger lurking over the ridge or an AT gun covering the Tiger's rear?

In ASL we know the other side's OB. In real life, no such luxuries & it's not "just cardboard" if you're the tincan tank commander that guesses wrong.

I think most Allied tank commanders, would likely hunker down and call for the Flyboys. Although maybe that's just the subset that survived the war & had the chance to write up their memoirs...

Bret Hildebran
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Thanks Bret,
that's the point I was trying to make. I recently read a book by Stuart Mills called 'By tank into Normandy'. He was a sherman troop commander in the Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry. At one point in the book he is in the middle of a column of British armour when a Tiger open ups and takes out the leading and the rear vehicles. You think oh-oh I know what's coming, but he orders his crew to fire smoke in front of the Tiger, as do other crews, no more vehicles are lost, then the FAC calls in Typhoons and they knock it out.

Its always satisfying to see ASL tactics used historically!

From a gaming mechanic viewpoint, has anyone tried doubleblind play with a referee?
 

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From a gaming mechanic viewpoint, has anyone tried doubleblind play with a referee?
There were a number of "Rumbles" that were played out sometime in the late 90's.

You essentially had an umpire/referee and a number of individual players on each side, each in a vehicle of some sort.

Not sure of the details, but was played out on VASL and each player only knew about/saw what the umpire told him he saw.

Tuomo and Dr. Rob(?) wrote a great AAR of thier respective roles in one of these....

Tuomoland

look under "Team Tank Rumble"
 

Bret Hildebran

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I played in 1 or 2 of the rumbles via email back in the pre-VASL days. Pretty cool & the email format worked well for that kind of activity. You just had to be patient to see the results the next day. I remember in one I had the Puma and knew my side was in trouble when I became the platoon leader as I was pretty far down the food chain...

I'd also done some fog of war type stuff back in the day playing 3 person with one as a referee. Totally changes the feel of ASL combat in ASL as you never know what's waiting for you just around the corner.

I'd been vaguely wondering if it would be possible to do a fog of war type rumble at ASLOK. Maybe a 4 on 4 rumble as part of a mini format? Not sure how well it would work or how exactly to synchronize the two "teams", but it sounds plausible & could be great fun if pulled off correctly...

I'm open to suggestions if folks would be interested in such a thing. Maybe a fun Wednesday mini perhaps?

Bret Hildebran
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alanp

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IIRC, Sam B was involved with something like that, too; perhaps he can share if he sees this.

A (former?) local developed a scenario or two in which neither side knows the OB of the other; you're given your OB and your objective (which may or may not have anything to do with your opponent's.) Double-blind is definitely a way to go for those who want more FoW and have a bit more time and if balance/VCs aren't as big of a concern (official ASL scenario turn lengths may have to be changed at the least.) Also, replayability can be a small but real issue.

Has anyone tried double-blind via VASL? The referee would have even more to do but it might be cool looking to the two opponents. Might also broaden the player base for those who don't have 3 locals with the time or inclination.
 

Darrell Andersen

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"Tuomo and Dr. Rob(?) wrote a great AAR of thier respective roles in one of these....

Tuomoland

look under "Team Tank Rumble"

Classic indeed. Was there ever an investigation into Claude's sudden departure? The stain on Les Mad Doctoor Seulowitz's honor...

I was involved in a couple of those as well...good times...good times...
 

asler

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Has anyone tried double-blind via VASL? The referee would have even more to do but it might be cool looking to the two opponents. Might also broaden the player base for those who don't have 3 locals with the time or inclination.
A long time ago I set up a double-blind scenario with two friends. They sat back to back with duplicate boards but only the OoB from their side and a small expectation description. They didn't know the other's OoB or even (in this case) respectiviely what direction the attacker was entering from or where the defender was. We tried it with a very small OoB - I remember the defender had a MMG and maybe 3 squads and a leader and the attacker maybe two leaders and 5 - 6 squads. I remember it being very cool but took a long time. Never tried it again - mostly because we couldn't get all three of us together again and then after that I just didn't think about it again.

Regardless - it was do-able.

Chris
 

JG53_Jaguar

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Oh, one other thing re. perfect intel: try SASL with armor--you may find it a bit more realistic with CnC rules and Suspect counters galore, if that's what you're looking for.
I have been playing with this idea and have been using it for my own solo scenarios.
 
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