AFV/Wrecks as cover

[Simon62]

Hi all,

I have a AVF in a building hex stationary and not in bypass so IN the buildings and claiming the TEM from the building.

An infantry unit fires at a target and the LOS passes along the hex side of the building where the AFV resides. The LOS is not blocked as the buildings are not crossed, the AFV is not in bypass.

Does a +1 LOS for the AVF apply to the shot both the firer and the target have a clear LOS to the building containing the AVF.

I am not sure if the AFV is considered inherent terrain but I can't find a reference, maybe just cant see the wood for the tree's. If the AVF was in bypass in the hex side of vertex crossed by the LOS I can see why a +1 hindrance would apply but not if the AVF is stationary in the building as the building would block the LOS and make this a mute question

Maybe this is just another quick of the rules or maybe I have just missed a rules reference

Si

 

[EagleIV]

An AFV is not Inherent Terrain, but since both the target and firer can see the AFV's Location the Hindrance still applies even though the AFV is in the building.

 

[Simon62]

ok thanks - strange but them's the rules!!!

 

[STAVKA]

ok thanks - strange but them's the rules!!!

Leaflet House Rule, solve this issue.

AFV/WRECK LOS HINDRANCE: Contrary to D9.4, an AFV/non-burn-
ing-wreck inside (i.e., not in Bypass) a building/Factory/woods obstacle does not present any LOS Hindrance.

 

[Bill Kohler]

Imagine you're firing past a tank whose snout is jutting from a building, and you're wondering if it might take an interest in gunfire aimed in its general direction, don't you think that might hinder your fire a little?

IMO, it's all about finding the right reality argument to settle any rule qualms.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

An AFV is not Inherent Terrain,...

An AFV is Inherent Terrain....

B.6 INHERENT TERRAIN: Certain terrain depictions (orchard, crag, graveyard, shellholes, etc.) and counter contents of a hex (SMOKE, Bridge, rubble, AFV, wreck)

 

[STAVKA]

This rule (have been) and is the hardest to teach other players and often wait until I tell about this stupid rule.

EX: Concealed Pz IV in the building, a German squad moving on the road behind ?-AFV-in-building, when firing upon with 4 FP (Russian 4-4-7), Russian player will not know if it is 4 FP -2 DRM or 4 FP 0 DRM.

DR 10+ AFV/Dummy status unknown, no result effect.

DR 9 or less, AFV must show that it is not a dummy AFV. If it is a Dummy (or Gun) that info is now revealed.

 

[Bill Kohler]

IMO it's not a "rule", per se. Rather, it's how several (creative and fun) rules happen to combine when a specific set of circumstances overlap. (You're probably way ahead of me on this, but just to spitball on a cold, snowy Saturday here in the States . . .)

ASL is very rich in what it covers--the various movements, and actions, and weapons. For these, the rulebook includes special exceptions to cover a majority of the many, many possible combinations--a Russian Platoon-moving tank in a Narrow Street on a Crest Line taking an Immobility check in an A-P Minefield with heavy ground snow at night into a hex with a Commissar while under an FFE:2.

But no matter how many special exceptions there are, players will always come across situations for which the rules don't provide realistic outcomes. And worse, what to one player feels like a realistic outcome, to another player doesn't

Yet if at some point the ASLRB didn't draw a line and say "enough", the rulebook would IMO become unreadable and the game unplayable. Sure, one can assert that this additional special exception and that one would only improve the game--and I won't argue with that. But where does one draw the line?

Now maybe it'd be fun if MMP had a "contest" of sorts, every year, where it added the single most-wanted special exception to the ASLRB. Ideas come to mind . . .
--exiting Foxholes without dying,
--limiting extra ROF shots to the ROF value,
--allowing breaks in Walls/Hedges,
--only one SAN check on an ITT shot,
--firing at an "empty" hex invokes the "Infantry/Other" Target Type unless you specify a different T.T. & Ammo,
--Weapon Repair attempts are mandatory,
--OBA chit draws and loss of battery access,
--Skulking,
--VBM Freeze Sleaze
Such a contest would make for some lively discussions, yet it might also outrage a few players who would quit the game as a result of it.

Sometimes, I guess, better the devil that you know . . .

 

[JimWhite]

--a Russian Platoon-moving tank in a Narrow Street on a Crest Line taking an Immobility check in an A-P Minefield with heavy ground snow at night into a hex with a Commissar while under an FFE:2.

Geez...hasn't everybody done that at least once or twice?

 

[BHBillett]

I don't recall where I saw this, However I recall something about a LOS having to cross the counter depiction for it to be in the way? Now THAT would be a tough one unless one could magically hold the counter down while measuring it!

 

[clubby]

I don't recall where I saw this, However I recall something about a LOS having to cross the counter depiction for it to be in the way? Now THAT would be a tough one unless one could magically hold the counter down while measuring it!

AFV and wrecks are inherent terrain.

 

[BHBillett]

 

[PresterJohn]

I don't recall where I saw this, However I recall something about a LOS having to cross the counter depiction for it to be in the way? Now THAT would be a tough one unless one could magically hold the counter down while measuring it!

You saw this is Squad Leader. I'm not sure which gamette.

 

[Philippe D.]

You saw this is Squad Leader. I'm not sure which gamette.

What a strange rule. Were there petitions to forbid counter clipping in response to it? Was the controversy smaller, or larger, than the IFT/IIFT one? I need to know!

 

[BHBillett]

Ah, That explains it. I can't see it being very coherent in the Asl world.

 

[Stewart]

This rule (have been) and is the hardest to teach other players and often wait until I tell about this stupid rule.

EX: Concealed Pz IV in the building, a German squad moving on the road behind ?-AFV-in-building, when firing upon with 4 FP (Russian 4-4-7), Russian player will not know if it is 4 FP -2 DRM or 4 FP 0 DRM.

DR 10+ AFV/Dummy status unknown, no result effect.

DR 9 or less, AFV must show that it is not a dummy AFV. If it is a Dummy (or Gun) that info is now revealed.

 

[Vinnie]

There is a rule whereby if the vehicle/wreck is out of LoS then it does not hinder even if it's hex is crossed.

 

[von Marwitz]

There is a rule whereby if the vehicle/wreck is out of LoS then it does not hinder even if it's hex is crossed.

Yes. I was thinking the same thing.

von Marwitz

 

[klasmalmstrom]

D9.4:
"...or if the AFV/wreck forming the Hindrance is not in the LOS of both the firer and the target ..."

 

[BHBillett]

D9.4:
"...or if the AFV/wreck forming the Hindrance is not in the LOS of both the firer and the target ..."

OK so NOW I'm getting lost. If an AFV/WRECK is IN a building AND is inherent terrain, would this hinder down the hex side? Or if the AFV/WRECK is in bypass on the north side of the hex is it a hinderance on the south side, it is inherent after all?
This sort of thing could really mess up fire lanes, not to mention what it's doing to my head!