AFV enters hex with a HIP infantry unit in road/wood hex ...

[John Bark]

if an AFV enters a hex using road movement in a woods/road hex...in that hex is a HIP infantry unit. can the HIP units remain HIP if the AFV enters and exits that hex? What if the AFV stops int the hex, does the HIP unit stay HIP? can you give me the rules reference for the correct way to play this. I think the HIP unit can stay HIP in situation where the AFV enters and then exits that hex...but, if the AFV stops in that hex the HIP unit is revealed but still concealed, right?

 

[jrv]

if an AFV enters a hex using road movement in a woods/road hex...in that hex is a HIP infantry unit. can the HIP units remain HIP if the AFV enters and exits that hex? What if the AFV stops int the hex, does the HIP unit stay HIP? can you give me the rules reference for the correct way to play this. I think the HIP unit can stay HIP in situation where the AFV enters and then exits that hex...but, if the AFV stops in that hex the HIP unit is revealed but still concealed, right?

A unit can retain its concealment (in this case HIP) without taking a PAATC when a vehicle enters on a woods-road [A12.41]. This remains true even if the vehicle stops. During the CCPh the HIP unit will be put on board as part of CC resolution.

If the vehicle had entered in Bypass instead of on a woods-road, the HIP unit would be revealed even if the vehicle did not stop if it ended its MPh in that location [A12.42]. But this does not apply to woods-road.

JR

 

[John Bark]

A unit can retain its concealment (in this case HIP) without taking a PAATC when a vehicle enters on a woods-road [A12.41]. This remains true even if the vehicle stops. During the CCPh the HIP unit will be put on board as part of CC resolution.
JR

why would they be put on board in the CCPh if there was no attack? the AFV wouldn't know they were there thus if the HIP unit didn't want to attack, it would stay HIP, right?

 

[jrv]

why would they be put on board in the CCPh if there was no attack? the AFV wouldn't know they were there thus if the HIP unit didn't want to attack, it would stay HIP, right?

If the vehicle remains in the location until the CCPh, the HIP unit is placed on board per A11.19. This again is independent of whether the vehicle stops or not. If the vehicle leaves the location the unit remains HIP of course.

JR

 

[Tom Nelson]

My question is about an AFV and it's HIP status in a woods road hex. Last year my opponent and I were playing the fascinating scenario Panthers in the Mist. Don had his Panther on a woods roads hex. On the road portion. However could he have had his HIP Panther in the woods section of that hex by recording that fact. Therefore my American armored car would have not seen him as it passed by on the road and not stopped there. Tom

 

[Mr Incredible]

Same mechanics for all concealed/hidden units.

 

[Tom Nelson]

Ambiguous reply. Yes or no. Can a player recording an HIP unit in a woods road location state that your AFV or MMC is in the woods rather than the road. Tom

 

[Jeffrey D Myers]

Da. But you would need to place a partial TB per B13.421.

 

[Mr Incredible]

Da. But you would need to place a partial TB per B13.421.

Which sort of gives things away. TBs aren't fortifications and are thus placed on the map irrespective of los when created. Probably needs a house rule stating the TBs are HIP until los to them. So basically an American M4 driving down a woods road will see some tracks leading off the road.

Hmmm, wonder what could be parked behind that big log?

 

[Jeffrey D Myers]

Da, tovaritch....

 

[Tom Nelson]

Would the trail appear to the American armored car only when it enter the wood road hex rather than be placed on the board before the start of play. If the latter is correct it defeats the purpose of its HIP status. The purpose of placing such an HIP AFV seems questionable but in the actual game an American squad with a BAZ killed the Panther with a rear shot in the advancing fire phase. The infantry unit would have had no LOS if the Panther had been in the woods instead of the road. Tom

 

[Eagle4ty]

Would the trail appear to the American armored car only when it enter the wood road hex rather than be placed on the board before the start of play. If the latter is correct it defeats the purpose of its HIP status. The purpose of placing such an HIP AFV seems questionable but in the actual game an American squad with a BAZ killed the Panther with a rear shot in the advancing fire phase. The infantry unit would have had no LOS if the Panther had been in the woods instead of the road. Tom

Tom, would need more info to properly answer your inquiry. As it stands it's fairly confusing to me at least.

 

[Mr Incredible]

Would the trail appear to the American armored car only when it enter the wood road hex rather than be placed on the board before the start of play. If the latter is correct it defeats the purpose of its HIP status. The purpose of placing such an HIP AFV seems questionable but in the actual game an American squad with a BAZ killed the Panther with a rear shot in the advancing fire phase. The infantry unit would have had no LOS if the Panther had been in the woods instead of the road. Tom

Well, A12.2 allows the playing setting up concealed to record BU, CE and TCA status. Nothing about TB status.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

When then American AC entered the woods-road hex, the German player needs to information him that it cost more MP to enter du to the Panther being in there. Unless there is an exception for woods-road hexes, otherwise the extra MP cost still applies, even if the Panther is hidden.

 

[Tom Nelson]

Okay I did not know about the extra MP to enter a hex with an AFV in it. What is the extra MP cost. The trail break appearance is interesting twist. Of course if it appears before the start of play this would make the issue of placement of the HIP Panther in the woods portion of the hex a non playable option. Sorry if I have been unclear in my questions. If the hex had been simply a woods hex would the placement of a trail break have been required. Tom

 

[Philippe R]

My question is about an AFV and it's HIP status in a woods road hex. Last year my opponent and I were playing the fascinating scenario Panthers in the Mist. Don had his Panther on a woods roads hex. On the road portion. However could he have had his HIP Panther in the woods section of that hex by recording that fact. Therefore my American armored car would have not seen him as it passed by on the road and not stopped there. Tom

I faced the same question during first KGP Scenario a few days ago.
Look at A12.2: " A vehicule that set-up in a wood-road hex is considered to be in Concealement Terrain for the purpose of OB/?..or HIP.." => Authorized to be HIP.
But next sentence: "but thereafter is considered to be on the Road and thus is Open Ground to clear LOS traced to it along the road" => As soon as you see the Location through a Road Hexside, the AFV is discovered (lost of HIP AND ?").
So IMHO, it's revealed before you face the question of the MP additional cost...

I wasn't aware an AFV could be set-up in the Wood part of the Hex with a TB. Good to know !

 

[Vinnie]

Interesting, you only place aTB if starting in a wood road hex but not in a wood hex.

 

[Philippe R]

When then American AC entered the woods-road hex, the German player needs to information him that it cost more MP to enter du to the Panther being in there. Unless there is an exception for woods-road hexes, otherwise the extra MP cost still applies, even if the Panther is hidden.

The AC sees the Panther from the previous hex: clear LOS through the Road hexside. "Clear" refers to "Unblocked". The Panther may still be in Non Open Ground terrain for other reasons (Mist ?), it's still a clear LOS.. so loss of Concealment (A12.2)

 

[klasmalmstrom]

The AC sees the Panther from the previous hex: clear LOS through the Road hexside. "Clear" refers to "Unblocked". The Panther may still be in Non Open Ground terrain for other reasons (Mist ?), it's still a clear LOS.. so loss of Concealment (A12.2)

Not if the Panther is set up in the woods portion of the hex - i.e., beneath a partial trail break (which, for the record, I'd say is not placed onboard until the Panther is revealed).

 

[James Taylor]

Not if the Panther is set up in the woods portion of the hex - i.e., beneath a partial trail break (which, for the record, I'd say is not placed onboard until the Panther is revealed).

Perhaps the RB has been updated, or a Q/A has been issued that I'm unaware of, but it does not provide explicitly the right for a player to setup a vehicle in the woods portion of a woods-road hex.

B13.31 describes *when* a vehicle is considered in the woods portion, but doesn't explicitly say you can set up there, and since you don't get to place a TB when setting up in woods its unclear if this is legal.

I believe it should be, and agree that the TB counter should remain HIP or concealed until the vehicle is revealed. I would even go further to state that no additional MP costs or hindrance can apply for HIP or concealed vehicles as I believe this is consistent with the original intent of "fog of war" that ASL set out to achieve.

The OP is rightly questioning one of the flawed areas of the RB where the mechanics require clarification.

I would happily play this situation with maximum FoW affects, but because of the lack of clarity regarding the legality of the setup I generally avoid trying to use a woods-road hex for a HIP vehicle.

One more piece of clarification for OP and others regarding this situation: If the vehicle is ON the road then as soon as a LOS is obtained to that vehicle that is NOT crossing the road depiction is gained that vehicle loses all concealment/HIP.

As Klas is much more in tune with RB edits/ QAs than I am perhaps he has some other info that refutes what I've said.

JT